Stepping back when everything feels out of control with Amanda Grace

This week I'm talking to Amanda Grace, a therapist and art journaling expert. We dive deep into the ways our egos run the show and keep us trapped in cycles of seeking external validation and chasing the next "fix" - whether that's another course, achievement or just mindless scrolling for a dopamine hit. Amanda doesn't hold back in calling out some hard truths about the lies we tell ourselves to avoid doing the real inner work. If you've ever felt helplessly controlled by bad habits, the need to constantly be accomplishing things, or approval-seeking,  this episode will light a fire under you. Listen now!

Can't-miss moments:

• Are you doing something for all the wrong reasons? I share a story about a "good habit" that wasn't really good for much when I broke it down...
  
  
• When ego is driving the bus: Amanda shares a must-watch movie that will open your eyes to all the ways your wounded inner child shows up as a shapeshifter to manipulate you... 
  
  
• Moderation is a lie: Amanda has a refreshing stance on what it means to be "moderate" with behaviors and habits we know are causing problems (this one probably won't feel good for most of us to hear, but it's necessary)... 
  
  
• Here's a belief I want to set on fire: you're a failure as an entrepreneur if you get a job. Amanda and I break down this fear, and show you how to make the right decision for you (no matter what the people around you might think)... 
  
  
• Are you gambling with your business? Amanda reveals how the "just one more course, one more podcast..." tendencies of Shiny Object Syndrome are just like gamblers who have gotten in over their heads (and shares a radical idea for how to stop this behavior in its tracks)... 

Amanda's bio:

Amanda Grace grew up in a happy, supportive, loving home. However, from as far back as she can recall, she battled with low self-esteem, persistent anxiety & an unidentifiable sense of shame - a shadow that lingered in the corners of her existence.

Following numerous and occasionally harmful attempts to "fix herself," Amanda ultimately unearthed a path to recovery that has since become her greatest gift & most central commitment in her life to this very day.

Now, she dedicates herself to mentoring women facing similar struggles, guiding them through the shadows of Generational Traumas that impede their journey towards freedom, confidence, and happiness, ultimately transforming their lives.

Resources and links:

• Amanda’s Website

Transcript

Angie Colee: 0:03

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners, from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs helming nine-figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Coley, and let's get to it. And welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend, Amanda.

Amanda Grace: 0:36

Grace Say hi, hi, hello, angie, and everyone.

Angie Colee: 0:43

Oh, I love it. I'm just looking at this awesome background setup that you've got behind you. I've got like my boring little screen, but I'm seeing a neon butterfly and this beautiful little lamp. I'm really jealous of the setup.

Amanda Grace: 0:49

Yeah, I'm rocking, I'm channeling some Prince vibes here with the whole purple thing going on in the background.

Angie Colee: 0:55

You love it, I love it. Prince seems to be coming up in my life a lot lately, really Like articles. I saw a story that broke down the whole reason why he changed his name to the artist formerly known as Prince and then back to Prince. It was a whole contract deal. Fascinating, fascinating character.

Amanda Grace: 1:12

He's so fascinating, absolutely Like I don't think we've even wrapped our heads around what Prince was Well, aside from turning this into a Prince podcast, which I could very easily do.

Angie Colee: 1:24

before I go down that rabbit hole, please tell us a little bit about what you do.

Amanda Grace: 1:28

Well, I am. My name is Amanda, I'm a journal artist, I am living. I am born and raised in Ireland and I'm living in Ireland. I live currently with my mother and my husband and my 16 year old golden doodle, ted, and our five year old, formerly feral cat that I have domesticated and now she is. She'd never really got a name, she more has a sound, so I call her Mish Mish and she screams like a banshee. So I am a journal artist and I am a therapist. I don't practice therapy anymore, but qualified therapist with a kind of a special focus on creative modalities and spirituality, and I teach journaling to women to help women transform their lives through journaling and specifically with the goal of helping them learn to recognize and heal the impact of generational trauma and how it shows up in our everyday lives.

Angie Colee: 2:28

Oh, I love that. That's such important work, and so tell me a little bit about what is different between journaling and being a journal artist.

Amanda Grace: 2:37

So when people think of journaling, they probably think pen to paper, but I also make art in my journals, so I have arts. I know that we have a video here, so I actually have some here beside me. So what I do is I use words and I also use imagery and art supplies in journals as well, so I keep several different types of journals. So this is an art journal and this is where I get to process and this. Obviously I'm laughing at myself doing this on an audio. People will be like that makes no sense, I can't see, but which reminds me of the time that our local, our national radio station here back when my father was growing up, had a ventriloquist on the radio once and my dad always tells that story about how funny that was well, we'll just have to redirect them to the video clip so that they can actually see that, because that was cool looking.

Angie Colee: 3:28

It really was.

Amanda Grace: 3:29

Yeah, yeah, and what I could even do is send you a few images, if you have show notes or something like that, like, if you want to, or put them up on my day to downloading and deciphering dreams I'm having, or signs that I'm seeing, or midwifing from the unconscious part of me, something through that wants to be known, but that language is just insufficient for me to grasp with. So it's very much a kind of a conscious and subconscious practice of using paper. Yesterday I coined the phrase it's my paper telephone. It's a paper telephone to God.

Angie Colee: 4:16

So I think that's fascinating. How did you wind up getting into this? It's such a unique take on journaling.

Amanda Grace: 4:23

Yes. So here's how I I mean it's a big thing, it's a, it's a big industry. But of course I discovered this quote unquote before I knew it was a thing. And how I started doing it, angie, is that when I was a young teenager I had secrets and I had a lot of things, as well, going on with me that I kind of felt shame around and didn't really want to talk about or felt that I couldn't talk about, and so I would hide my secrets in plain sight, in that I would use journals and I would kind of develop codes, so I would speak or I would express myself in imagery or I would make up codes or I would express emotions through color. So you know, I might have a big red page and that represented anger and imagery in that. So I was kind of like I was. I was hiding my secrets in plain sight.

Amanda Grace: 5:16

I've also been a songwriter in the past. I've used poetry and lyrics to express and tell things about my life that I didn't really have. I didn't really think that I either. I didn't have the what would you say? Almost like the logical, linear language maybe. So I might be just expressing something that I don't even fully understand. I just need to park it somewhere for now. It needs to get out of me.

Angie Colee: 5:42

Oh, I love that.

Amanda Grace: 5:44

Yes, so I've done that all my life and it's something that I naturally do, and we all do it, by the way, to some extent, you know so, like everybody. How you dress, you have purple and pink hair. There's obviously a reason for that, you know. So it's like we're always expressing something all the time, so words are so inefficient and we go back to Prince, and Prince, like, changed his name to a symbol. Yes, it was about a contractual thing as well, but it was also like a philosophical, spiritual thing in that I can't be defined.

Angie Colee: 6:17

Mm. Hmm, you know, I am.

Amanda Grace: 6:19

Yeah, this is what I am, and and the minute I put a word on it, I restrict it, I limit it and it loses. It loses the kind of depth and weight of meaning that it could have if it was left abstract.

Angie Colee: 6:36

Oh, wow. That's such a cool way of looking at it, because the thing that I wrote down that struck me was so. This comes instinctive to you because I was curious about whether you ever had a thought in your head about the right way to journal. Is this something I should be doing or shouldn't be doing? Should I be doing pen to paper the way that people tell me I should right? Did that thought ever cross your mind? Or it was just more about expressing yourself?

Amanda Grace: 7:02

It was always about expressing myself. I never really had it's the one area in my life that I do have that intuitive instinct of you know, it's just there. It's how I do it. There are times when I've picked up journals and tried to follow the journal and I always end up coloring outside the lines. I always go in my own direction because what I'm responding to is emergent. So I call art journaling emergency art, Like it's literally an emergency in every sense of the word. It's something is emerging and it is emergent. And it's also sometimes it's an emergency that I get this down on paper, Like I cannot wait until I have the words.

Angie Colee: 7:45

Oh my gosh, I love that. And that ties to the other thing that I wrote down, because I thought it was really cool that you said I don't normally have. I don't always have the linear language to be able to like express this thought, and I feel like that's probably something that holds a lot of people back from journaling. So being able to express a concept like Princeton without using words, just to be able to put some imagery or a color down, or something like that, I feel might encourage some of our listeners to experiment with the non-traditional journaling.

Amanda Grace: 8:14

Yeah, and you can't see what I'm looking at here. So you see my background, but it's all kind of like in like. But all around my desk here I have symbols, so I have, I have this Matryoshka doll, so the nesting doll, and in there I have a tape. So all of these things are okay. So here's how it goes and this is what I incorporate in all my journaling and how I use creativity to help people develop awareness and tap into wisdom, and that lies in their subconscious. But language gets in the way. So when we are in developmental terms, we learn to point before we learn to talk, and so I basically teach people how to point so you might know what really is going on. But if I leave you in, you know, give you access to all my toys and tools as such, you can point at something and say, like it's that, like I don't know what that is, but it's that something about that is true for me, like there's something very true about that. So I have her there, I have a whale here, I have a giraffe up over my head, I have this card here, and these are all ways that I am communicating. So I've worked with this card for about three years, literally just with it on my desk here and I just meditate on it. And I'll give you an example of how this works as well.

Amanda Grace: 9:41

Have you ever had a dream? And that dream? You wake up and it's so clear and it's so vivid, absolutely. The minute you try and explain it to someone, what happens? It makes no damn sense, it falls apart. It's like a joke. The minute you have to explain it, it's gone. You've kind of missed the point.

Amanda Grace: 10:02

So it can be really fruitful to learn how to work symbolically, so that you have time to kind of gestate and you know, like babies are not born the minute they're conceived. There's a nine month process where that baby has to become, you know, ready and developed enough to be out in the world. And the same is true for truth and for experience. You know our experience. It's not, again, it's not linear, there isn't a direct line, it's not. We can know something and you've had this experience, everyone has had this experience where you've known something for a long, long time before you knew it. That's what we're really getting at here. So this is the kind of world that I introduce my clients to. This is the kind of process I should say I introduce and I give them all these tools to allow time to do its thing and for you to engage with the thing before it's ready.

Angie Colee: 11:01

I find that fascinating because I feel like there I wrote down language gets in the way, cause I thought that that was kind of a poignant thing that you said that a lot of folks get so hyper fixated on. I have to describe this right for somebody to understand that they don't get what you just said. Like you can just say it's like that. I don't know what that necessarily means, but that is what I'm feeling can really help us connect and understand. And I wasn't always a big journaler. I've done some things off and on. Like I have 750 words. If you've ever heard of that. It's like a little online journaling site where the goal is to just write 750 words a day and they give you this big fancy check mark every time you do it. It's very satisfying, yeah, but then I was just doing it to get the green check mark instead of actually like for the fulfillment of it, and so the first time I broke my streak after 82 straight days, I like rage quit and then didn't write in it for over a year.

Amanda Grace: 12:00

Well, you know that that's kind of like prioritizing quantity over quality. Well, you know that that's kind of like prioritizing quantity over quality, exactly, yeah, but you know, it's not a bad thing either, but I tend to stay away from those prescriptive type of you have to do this thing every day. Well, I say that, and then I, you know, I have things that I do every day. So I don't know, but I understand, I understand what it's like to kind of try, and because the ego gets involved then, doesn't it? It's like, you know, and I'm having a massive battle of wits with well, not a battle of wits I think I'm coming to, I'm surfacing from a massive battle of wits with my ego.

Angie Colee: 12:34

Interesting. Tell me more about that.

Amanda Grace: 12:36

In that you know, I have for the last few years really struggled with feeling like I've been swimming uphill and everything has felt really hard and exhausting. And all of this and I am. I'm also in recovery. So I'm seven years sober from alcohol and thank you in June, and but I never really I, I I didn't do the 12 steps. I didn't do the 12 steps, I didn't do a kind of a quit. I kind of quit. I was in, I had a sober community, let's say, and I was engaging with the literature and I was kind of. You know, I was engaging, but I didn't actually do the steps. And I'm doing them now in another fellowship.

Amanda Grace: 13:19

So what's happening now is that like I'm having my come to Jesus moment in that, like I had my breakdown, slash, breakthrough last November. And what I'm finding out in the unpacking of it all and the examining of it all and going through this process is that ego has been driving this bus for a long time and I didn't know it. And the reason I didn't know it is because ego is. Have you ever seen the movie Fallen? No, I don't think. I have Okay With Denzel Washington. So if you're a client of mine, this is one of your homework assignments is to watch that movie, right, Especially if you're dealing with that.

Amanda Grace: 13:59

Yeah. So, especially if I have a bunch of popular culture thing, I'm like, ok, you need to listen to this song, study those lyrics, watch this movie. Here's the thing you know. So I use a lot of, again, things outside of language to illustrate a point.

Amanda Grace: 14:13

So in this movie, denzel Washington is the good guy and he's up against what essentially is the devil. But the devil is is a non. There's no form, it's a spirit, it's an energy, and this devil basically habits other people. So by doing that, it's like, possesses people and turns them evil. Let's say so. He never knows the face of evil. It's like it's coming at him in a different form, like it's human, but it's a different human every time.

Amanda Grace: 14:46

And I feel like the ego is like that, it's a shapeshifter, and so it comes at you in one way and you overcome it in that way and you think that you've eradicated ego.

Amanda Grace: 14:54

Next thing, you know it has started to sneak up on you in other ways.

Amanda Grace: 14:59

So, and the other thing is that I think when we think of ego, we think of something inflated, we think of something that is like, you know, like bulgy and aggressive and like flamboyant Wolf of Wall Street kind of thing. You know this kind of like dickhead energy, but actually ego can just be like no, that's not good enough, that's not enough, you're doing it wrong, you have to do it like her. She's doing it better than you, she's nailed it, you know. So that's what was in the back of my and I'm kind of shocked, especially because of the line of work that I'm in, that it has crept up on me like that, you know. So I've kind of surrendered, you know I've surrendered and I've just said, ok, all right, I'm, you know, I I've basically handed the keys over and I've said I'm drunk, I can't drive right now and I need to get sober from this fucking thing. You know this, this entity, this force, this ravaged, impoverished Oliver Twist, like character that lives in me and that's driving the bus.

Angie Colee: 16:08

I'm grateful that you said that because I know I've said it before on the show like all of this stuff is a work in progress. In fact, in the recording I made just a while ago it's like lest you think I am preaching from the mountaintop, having figured out all my shit that's not the case here. That we're talking about. All of this stuff is a practice, and that's why I'm grateful for you saying that, because here you are, coming from the therapy background, doing constant journaling, doing constant processing and saying, and it crept up on me and this old pattern resurfaced and the ego wants to be involved. Is this connected to what we were talking about last November when you were talking about getting off social media?

Amanda Grace: 16:45

A hundred percent Awesome.

Amanda Grace: 16:48

Yeah. So the other thing and I only wrote this in my journal the other day social media is like crack for my ego. So it really is. Yeah, so it's grounded right now. I have put it's like you know, you're not allowed on there because I cannot trust my.

Amanda Grace: 17:04

I went on there the other day for something. I reactivated my account because I had to get something off my own feed and I was on there for like I wouldn't, I wouldn't even say a minute when I started to feel activated. Can you tell me more about that? Well, it was just.

Amanda Grace: 17:21

It just felt really unsafe and uncertain and once again, I felt like and because I have that bit more awareness now, I've felt extremely vulnerable online in that my ego is you know, because ego is whole thing is fragility. It's just so fucking fragile that it cannot cope with being out there like that right now. You know what I mean. So, or until I, until I get it out of my car because it's still in the back seat now it mightn't be driving, but it's still over there in the back seat, you know, and maybe it'll always be in the back seat, or maybe I'll do a you know goodfellas on it and get into the trunk at some point.

Amanda Grace: 18:05

But yeah, I just felt extremely activated online because I was instantly confronted with the feed and I was instantly confronted with, you know, people who are still or I guess you know colleagues and peers and and people who are still working online, the system working, you know, work in the room as such, and I am, too in a kind of I'm in a chrysalis right now and it's like everything is under scrutiny. Not under scrutiny, but there's an inquiry. I'm like you know it's. It's like let me use another movie reference the Sixth Sense is another movie that I'm ask everyone to watch. So I, you know I'm the dead people and I've been acting like when you're operating under ego. You just you don't know you're dead yet.

Amanda Grace: 18:55

So, I've just had the moment where the ring has dropped and I realized, oh my God, I'm the dead people too. And every that dissonance that happens before you accept and kind of create a new reality and come to terms with that new reality and and come back into alignment with something real. So I had fallen out of authenticity because I was trying to. I, you know, I was just kind of like and this is what social media does to us, by the way, it pulls those levers, and if you've ever watched the social dilemma, it's terrifying. It pulls those levers, and if you've ever watched the social dilemma, it's terrifying, yes, you know. And then there's all the scarcity in the background and you're running a business.

Angie Colee: 19:35

If I get off social media, that is going to kill my business. I've heard that from so many people and I think we talked about that a little bit too, especially since what you do is so visual and like, perfectly suited to social media. What did happen once you decided to take a break, or are you off permanently?

Amanda Grace: 19:51

I haven't decided if I'm going to go back yet, but what I did do was I got a job, I got a day job. So I, you know, because that was going to happen, because I just wasn't going to like even marketing is out for me right now. You know, I'm just not doing it because I'm in a space of dissonance, because I'm in a learning phase. I'm tearing something down and the new structure isn't in place yet. So you know, I'm not going to build anything on a foundation that hasn't been put in properly yet. So hence, I got a job to cover the expenses that would need to be covered, so that I am not I don't need to draw in clients at the moment. I have my clients, I have clients that I have ongoing work with. I have a. You know, I'm still working. I'm just not marketing it and I'm not creating anything new right now. I'm just on a timeout.

Angie Colee: 20:53

Yeah, thank you for sharing that, because I feel like that's another way that we can kind of I don't know if self sabotage is the right word, but we can get unconsciously stuck right, because ego, again, the the pride, won't let us go.

Angie Colee: 21:08

Okay, there's something about this I don't love, and to be able to really figure out what piece of this is not working for me, or if all of it is just not working for me, I need to be able to separate myself from it.

Angie Colee: 21:21

So there's a lot I've heard this repeated in a lot of circles Like am I a failure If I go get a job and I give up on this? And I usually have to tell them it's not giving up to get a job, it's buying yourself some breathing room to actually be able to think things through without devolving into a constant state of panic because, oh my God, how am I going to eat? Oh my God, I'm going to lose my house. You can't actually create, you can't think, you can't excuse me can't plan or strategize if you are constantly in a state of panic, worrying about how you're going to take care of yourself. So I love that you shared that story about okay, well, this is not working for me and I don't want to market, I don't want to do all of these things that I have been doing.

Amanda Grace: 22:09

Let me go get my needs taken care of in this way and continue working with the people I like working with and then see what comes up yeah, wonderful, and what, what, what gets sacrificed if you, if you ignored which which you will, by the way, cause I've been ignoring it for like, I've just been pushing on through until you know, eventually you just can't anymore. So I like that, by the way, with that question, you know, is me getting a job Like? Does that mean I have failed when, when someone asks a question like that, you actually just remove the question and turn it into a statement, cause that's what that's ego saying Me getting a job means I have failed.

Angie Colee: 22:47

Yep, I've heard so many people say that. I've said that too.

Amanda Grace: 22:50

So have I, which is why I was in resistance to it for so long. Because I was in resistance. Imagine I was resisting solving a problem because of a thought I had that that solution was actually a problem. I love how brains work, yeah and yeah, they make absolutely no sense and it's such a gaslighting, strange thing. And then what ends up happening is that everything you're putting out there become well, let me own this Everything I was putting out there was there, was almost like a smell of it, I think in that like it was coming off as inauthentic.

Amanda Grace: 23:28

It was because I was putting it out, because I had to, because there's bills coming and I don't have you know. So now it's a scramble. I just have to scramble something together or I'm reaching in the wrong way. It's just. It's really fascinating and alarming, embarrassing. I feel really vulnerable right now that I have veered so far off course, unknowns to myself, and seen the impact in that Like I literally stopped resonating with people, people stopped resonating with me, like it just stopped working and I was taking it personally and I just was not open to the truth that I have veered off course and the pandemic had a lot to do with it, of course, because we all had to pivot and you know like it was survival mode there and everything changed so much. So it's a really vulnerable thing to actually throw your hands up and be like do you know what? I'm drunk? Sorry, I'm just drunk, I need to tap out.

Angie Colee: 24:45

And you saying that I'm drunk again is what reminded me of that. A good friend of mine named Marcella Allison gave a talk on that that I was very, very impactful to me because I like to call it a recovering type, a recovering control freak, thinking that if only I just make the perfect plan and I've got all my little duckies in a row. Guys, have you ever tried to herd ducks or herd cats or herd babies or anything that basically does not want to be herded? It's chaos. You can't control anything but yourself.

Amanda Grace: 25:14

Even that you can't control, even the self, even yourself.

Angie Colee: 25:18

Yep, Even the self. That's what I thought was funny about surrender. It's like that's it's giving up control and it's also just kind of keeping yourself in check in a way. It's fascinating to me it's giving up control, and it's also just kind of keeping yourself in check.

Amanda Grace: 25:30

In a way, it's fascinating to me. Yeah, it is, and that's what produces the feeling of swimming uphill, because it's in in the what was it in the rooms that's called self-will run riot.

Angie Colee: 25:42

I haven't heard that before.

Amanda Grace: 25:44

Yeah, and it's, it's so culture like it's. The culture is literally you can do it. And I mean, you know I got I'm trained as a coach in several like. I have a couple of coach trainings under my belt and I don't even want to use the word coach anymore because I've become allergic to life coaching. I'm like, get me away from that industry as well, because the message is this whole like it's so self-will run riot. It's like you can do anything. And you know I'm here to tell you that actually you can't or you can, but there will be a cost, you know. And that's not to say that you just kind of tap out and be like oh well, I guess I just settle for it. No, it's sometimes like at one point I was, I was going so hard at success that I realized now that what I was going for, I was willing to settle for success. Do you know? It wasn't the thing like there's nothing like getting what you want to realize. That's not it.

Angie Colee: 26:46

Yeah, I've seen that play out over and over again with people that I've worked with Be careful what you wish for.

Amanda Grace: 26:52

And so that's the thing. When the ego is in charge, there's an element of be careful what you wish for. I say, like you are pursuing something so hard and so narrow-mindedly and it becomes so. Coming up to November, I was starting to feel like a gambler. It felt like gambling, you know. It was like this. Next, you know this. It was the exact same mindset as a gambler as in like this next horse, you know, or next dog, or next whatever they're betting on, next scratch card. For me, it was this next book that I read, the next podcast, the next course I put out, like this next thing, and then I'll have what I want. Then things will get easier, Then I'll be on the pig's back and in the meantime, your nervous system is fried, your relationships are falling apart. You're probably smoking, eating, drinking, whatever it is you're doing to cope, and you're in complete and utter denial about what's actually happening.

Angie Colee: 27:53

I'm just going to like let that sit for a second, because I think every single one of us myself, everybody listening has been through that moment, whether we acknowledge it or not, that like we're kind of on autopilot, we're convinced that just one more thing, just one more thing and I'll finally be able to breathe, I'll finally be able to make it. And I remember the moment when I realized I used to have this story in my head about I've got to work a little bit harder to get ahead and then I can relax. And what happens when you get really good, especially if you're in a job, right? So if you get really good at working ahead, they just give you more work to fill the space. Right, you haven't actually done anything, but give yourself more work to do. It's so tricky just to get yourself out of that space, out of autopilot, and to recognize this isn't what I want.

Amanda Grace: 28:42

It's kind of like a form of Parkinson's law. You know what that is? Yes, I love Parkinson's law. It's kind of that thing and for anyone listening who doesn't know, it's kind of the idea that however much time you have is exactly how much time it's going to take, or however much money you have is exactly how much money you're going to need. You know, the universe expands and contracts. So yeah, if you become more efficient, you suddenly attract more jobs.

Angie Colee: 29:09

And that was.

Amanda Grace: 29:10

I yeah.

Angie Colee: 29:11

And I was getting to the point where I was working like 18, 20 hour days. This was in my corporate job as a copywriter and burned out very hard. I mean, I'm talking sitting on the front porch, staring off into space for three days, only stopping to like eat and visit the restroom, but like I just couldn't do anything except sit there and try to get back to normal. And one day it just kind of snapped within me Like I can't get ahead. There is no getting ahead, there's only I'm done for today Stop. And that was so freeing. Like I'm done for today. I feel like that was a form of surrender too, of like just trusting. If, if my soul tells me that this is the time to stop and that it will be there tomorrow and I can pick up then, then that's what we're going to do and it'll be. It will be okay.

Amanda Grace: 29:58

Oh, it's so painful when you think about it, because when we're doing that, like I need to get ahead or this next book, what we're really saying to ourself is I'm not safe here, I'm not safe here, I'm not safe here, I'm not safe here.

Angie Colee: 30:09

This isn't where.

Amanda Grace: 30:09

I'm at is not safe.

Angie Colee: 30:11

Which is so funny because I've been, I've talked with somebody about this a lot. If you are in the present, you can acknowledge that you are safe. Like, let's use this as an example, you are sitting at home in your studio talking to me right now. I am sitting at home in my studio talking to you right now. We are both safe.

Angie Colee: 30:32

There may be things that are happening outside, you know, like heaven forbid I'm going to knock on everything here. There could be a rocket heading this way. You know, and my love to everybody that's in a not safe space right now, or a war zone. There's unsafe things right all around us, but I can't do anything about that. But right here, right now, I'm safe. You listening to this podcast right here, right now. You're safe In the future. You may not be In the past most of us certainly aren't because we've got all our head trash and demons to deal with right. But right here in this moment and that's why I love mindfulness, the more I've learned about that just to be able to sit here and go. Okay, here I am, I feel the ground under my feet. I feel my butt in the chair. It's okay, I can find a way to make this okay.

Amanda Grace: 31:10

There's a great, great quote from. He's a spiritual writer, Jeff Foster is his name. Hell is believing that what I want isn't here. Wow.

Angie Colee: 31:20

Wow, talk about a gut punch, and I think that's what you believe in has a way of making itself manifest, right? I used to be somebody that believed success is for other people but not for me, or that success is working really, really hard, right, and so that's how I was working 18 to 20 hour days, and it was astonishing to me when I went what if it could be fun? What if it could be easy? Right, and I'm not saying that it's going to be coasting on autopilot or easy street, but these here are the things that I'm really interested in and that bring out my passion that I want to do.

Angie Colee: 31:56

I'm just going to try some things and see how this works, and then I would have a lot easier sales with people that were more aligned with me, versus feeling like I had to put on a mask and win somebody over again. That ego like do you approve of me? It's so painful. It really is, it is. And I felt that thing that you talked about too with social media before, where I can literally feel like my shoulders kind of coming up around my ears if I'm scrolling too much, and that's an addiction that I'm still trying to break too. If you got any pointers, I will take them.

Amanda Grace: 32:24

Well, you know, here's the one thing I will say is that moderation will just make a fucking fool of you. Entire abstinence, it feels again, it feels counterintuitive. And the only reason it feels counterintuitive. So here's what we say in addiction, let's say in the fellowship of the 12 steps or whatever, if you are clinging on to something, acting like as if you can't actually live without it, or that life will be hard without it, it means it's a compulsion, it's an addiction. You have been conned, you have been conned on some level, or else you are. You know, you know, like it's, it's, it's, it could be a problem if that's the case, you know. So if we're clinging onto, well, I can't, I can't just come off social media. What will happen? To blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Amanda Grace: 33:13

And we're, we're just in total resistance to the idea at that stage, in that like and and the lie we're believing in is that there is a better way, like there's a way to moderate this. And if you think about it in terms of how drinkers so here's what drinkers do when, rather than because, the thought of not drinking ever again is just horrifying to somebody who, kind of like, is so attached to it. So what we do before we arrive at entire abstinence is do you know what? I'll only drink on the weekends. I'll never drink before three. I'll never drink past nine. I'll only I'll stop drinking spirits. I'll only have wine. I'll only have a glass of wine. I'll only have one bottle.

Amanda Grace: 33:58

So we start doing and you do that with social media. It's like I'll only look at it on the weekdays. I'll put a thing on my phone that only allows me on for 15 minutes at a time. So what we're doing there is we're bargaining. We're bargaining with the thing, we're giving even more energy to the thing and we are swallowing to like one. First of all, we're in denial that this is a problem and that it is actually costing us dearly, and secondly, we are believing and chasing the lie that I can control it. I can control this thing that has so much power over me. And now you can't. And that's why the first step is about powerlessness, and I balked against that for so long because I was like well, that's a really negative message.

Angie Colee: 34:44

It doesn't mean you have no power.

Amanda Grace: 34:46

It just means that you were never going to change this thing. This thing is the way it is and like you can. You know you could be the best dog trainer in the world, but you will never turn your dog into a cat or teach it to meow. You just won't do it. They're two different animals, so it's the same thing. It's like you're never going to change the nature of this thing. That's what I mean. Yeah, so you're probably sorry.

Angie Colee: 35:13

You asked like any tips on like yeah, entire abstinence and get rid of it, not at all, and I mean that's part of the reason that I love having these conversations, because it opens me up to a whole bunch of different perspectives, opinions, thoughts, ideas, ways of processing, and I see myself kind of like a chameleon in that regard, that if I see something somebody else is doing that I think is really awesome and could work for me, I will borrow and adapt things like that. And it's been a struggle to get out of the mindless scroll thing. I think I really picked that up as a bad habit in the wake of the pandemic and this bad breakup that I had that was like that was my dissociation was to just doom scroll as we talk about it and in a way it worked right Because I would be oh look, cute kittens. Oh my gosh, this funny video. Let me share it with somebody else and make them smile.

Angie Colee: 36:04

Dopamine, yeah, dopamine. But then after a while I would just notice this constant, chronic anxiety, Just no particular thought associated with it, you know, and the way my anxiety manifests is usually it's like spiraling thoughts that I'm trying to wrap my mind around. But when I'm on social media, a whole lot, especially if it's like more than normal, whatever that means I can tell because it starts to feel like this just energy that I don't like and I don't want to be around, and it's so interesting to see that reflected back at you, that that like, yeah, you gotta, you gotta stop if it's not working for you, if it's causing that anxiety, yeah, oh you can.

Amanda Grace: 36:44

I mean, it's one, it's, it's a solution. You know what I mean. It's something you can do, or you can keep using and find out the hard way that there actually is no moderation of this thing, that you're you're going to fall back into it. You know, unless you're a robot or one of these, I don't know people who can moderate, I don't know. But also, we have to give ourselves compassion here, because we're up against giants here in that that, like these, you know, the algorithm is designed and all of these platforms are designed like. Their goal is to keep you online.

Angie Colee: 37:19

And they're very good at it.

Amanda Grace: 37:21

Yeah, and we're not idiots Like. We're not idiots because we can't put the phone down, we're like targets is what we are, mm, hmm, you know, and it can be really hard. It can be really hard to divest, which is a great term that I learned. I learned that from I can't remember who it was, it's a, an activist in the social justice area. I can't remember who it was.

Amanda Grace: 37:43

But anyway, this idea of divesting because I went through a whole period of divesting from diet culture at one point I felt I honest not felt, I believed that if I stopped dieting that I would just turn into a fucking blip and float off into space. I literally was terrified. The thought and even before, like the thought of it was even offensive. I was like, oh, like, oh, fuck off, you know I was. I was so outrageous as a concept to me to not be dieting or weighing myself. Yeah, so those say, you know, like, look at different areas in our lives where this has proven to be true, where it's like I was so enmeshed in this that the suggestion to divest from it, to unplug, to withdraw from it felt terrifying to me, because it was like what will happen to me? I will just vanish. I will just disappear into oblivion. I will eat myself to death.

Angie Colee: 38:49

Yep, I'll be all by myself, often my own man, and that's it's fascinating. I wrote down, when you were talking about that, the idea of instant gratification and that tied in to you know how, how we're targeted on social media, both by ads but also by keeping us online. It's that dopamine hit that you mentioned. It's that those feel good chemicals that we want very quickly, because maybe I had a hard day, so I'm going to look at some kitten videos. But then that ties back for me to something that you said way back at the beginning of the call with the developing truth. These things take time to build, to coalesce into something solid, to be born, into something that makes sense for you. So in a way, you know, as as I'm hearing it and understanding it off the top of my head, it feels like getting rid of that instant gratification allows for things to develop and be born. Would you say that's accurate?

Amanda Grace: 39:43

Yeah, here's how I would put it. There is a process. Here's how I would put it. There is a process, transformation, change, like there is a process and what we don't have, that you can have and that I teach, is a way to facilitate that process, to be in that process, to engage with the process, to allow the process.

Amanda Grace: 40:05

This is not about hacking the process, which is kind of like why I've kind of pulled out of the whole coaching area as well, because I'm like no, we're not going to hack the fucking clock. Yes, no, we're not going to hack success. Like we're not going to hack it, you're going to sit in the shitty goo of the process of getting from this is great to this is not feeling so great. Actually, this is now. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. All the way through to wow, I can't believe that I was so into that. Yep, you know. So.

Amanda Grace: 40:42

It is a process and that process must happen. Mm, hmm, and all we need not all we we need, but what we need is tools. We, we need a set, a skill set to be able to endure that process, to trust that process, to facilitate the process, to share it to you know to like all the things to be in that process, give yourself to the process, and it absolutely sucks when that part, because we usually wake to the process at some kind of a rock bottom moment. So the entry into the process is really difficult. It's like nobody would choose this, you know, and that's why. So, when I say to my clients you know, when they, when they kind of like, go in and they, they take the process on and they're like, oh, jesus Christ, I'd say no, this is why people stay drunk. Yeah, cause it's messy.

Angie Colee: 41:39

It's so much easier than facing yourself head on and there there's so many fears tied into that, doing something differently too. What if it's worse? I know what it's like now and I know that I can handle it. And if, if I go make this big change, and it's worse over there? Um, what was the whole point? The whole point was that you tried something. The whole point is that you figured out you can do something different, even if it doesn't wind up being what you liked or it doesn't wind up being something that worked out the way that you thought, and the aftermath can be exactly like you said. This is way better than I thought it would be. How on earth did I think that that was the way the survival? I'm having a hard time articulating myself because I'm very, very much into this, but like it's fantastic.

Amanda Grace: 42:24

Yes, and this is where you know we could probably, you know, we could have this conversation through express of dance, and I'm joking, you know what, as what it is as well, though it's it's and this is going to sound like a leap, but bear with me, it's actually a fear of death and it's a, it's an ego death, you know, because ego is fear driven and it's it's latched onto this thing for survival. It's like this thing, this thing, okay, this is. This is, by the way, also what a cults happen. You know the way you read about a cult and you're like, well, how the fuck did that happen? Like, are they stupid? No, they're not. It's just they were vulnerable. Yep, looking for something to believe in. Predator came along, made the one simple promise you know, I got something that will make your life better. You know I can help you feel safe. And next thing, you know you're in and you're in. And then that's when the investing starts and nobody wants to walk away from an investment. You know, catch your chips in and be like, oh well.

Angie Colee: 43:27

Oh yeah, that sunk cost fallacy is so, so hard to divest from. Well, I've spent this much money on it already, might as well. Or time, yep, or time Yep. Might as well stay the course. Energy effort we can replace all of those with that. I've spent so much on this, I might as well see it through to the end. Well, the ends could be more of the same.

Amanda Grace: 43:50

Do you know? What I love to do as well, to make it even more relatable, is to bring it back to again areas of your life where you're already doing this and like, or you've had an experience, so okay. So, everybody listening, raise your hand. If you have ever had the experience of having grown your hair for a couple of years and then being afraid to cut it, there you go there's over here with the really long hair yeah, both our hands are raised because I've spent all this time growing my hair and now I'm.

Amanda Grace: 44:14

What do I do? Just cut it. It's the same thing. It kind of as in like you become. The dilemma becomes you know, if I cut my hair, did I waste all that time growing it?

Angie Colee: 44:27

it's so funny, the things that and that feels like so intense too, something that causes a whole lot of worry and anxiety, like cutting hair. It's not quite the same thing as making the decision to amputate a limb or to like remove somebody from your life or to remove a toxic job from your life. It's just hair, but we fixate on these things and make them so big sometimes. That's fascinating to me. Yeah Well, I think this has been a fascinating conversation. I think I've said fascinating about 20 times too, so we know how I feel about this. But what I want to know is where we can learn more about working with you, how people can get in touch. Tell us.

Amanda Grace: 45:05

Okay. Well, right now, things are very simple because obviously I'm on a kind of a hiatus. I'm over here in my chrysalis, don't know what the fuck is going on. Well, it's not that I don't know what's going on, but I do have a. Right now, my website is under construction because I am, but I do have a landing page at wwwamandagraceie. I can't believe I said the three W's. Who does that in 2024? But anyway, yes, amandagraceie, you can sign up to my mailing list Now.

Amanda Grace: 45:34

Right now, what I'm doing is I'm shooting out a newsletter once a month, and then that newsletter is a little bit about what's going on here, and then it's like here's what I'm enjoying. I'm sharing the books I'm reading, I'm sharing the movies, I'm watching things like that, reading, I'm sharing the movies, I'm watching things like that, and then anything that's going on. Let's say that. So it's not like it's not right now, it's not this big. Well, it never really was this big sales engine. With a view to what I'm hoping to do in the future which is why I would encourage you to get on the list is because I do want to offer, let's say, either a monthly or bi-weekly get together, and it'll be a free offering where I will teach a, let's say, a fundamental journaling and this will be pen to paper journaling process. That will help you start getting into this kind of into the water of opening this conversation with yourself, like developing this way of communicating with yourself, and that I'm hoping to do at some point soon.

Amanda Grace: 46:32

I had you know I yeah, there's also a YouTube channel in the background. That I may or may not do, I don't know. Things are, like I said, under construction right now, but I do encourage you to get on the newsletter and watch me. Watch me have my little breakdown. It's great crack.

Angie Colee: 46:47

Well, I want to celebrate you for being because I think that's brave to say like here. I am doing things, trying to find my path forward. This doesn't look like anything else. Anybody else is doing this, doesn't? I don't know how this is going to turn out. I don't have answers for you and I don't sell you either.

Amanda Grace: 47:06

right now, I literally have nothing to sell you.

Angie Colee: 47:09

Just answers for you, and I don't have anything to sell you either right now. I literally have nothing to sell you, just to allow that and just to be without the shoulds and the gottas of the world right that keep us mindlessly moving forward towards things that we don't even want. So may this inspire somebody listening you don't have to do anything. You don't gotta do anything. You shouldn't stop. You should stop. Shitting on yourself is what you should do, but I hope that this is inspiring.

Amanda Grace: 47:32

I do hope so, and what I above anything, what the one thing I've always hoped, is that you know you get to see somebody figuring it out in real time and not pretending like as if I know you know not pretending, like as if this is an exact science. A lot of transparency here, and that's really important to me for you to see somebody who is just like trying to figure shit out and there is no manual there is no manual.

Angie Colee: 47:58

That is the perfect way to wrap this up. Thank you so much for being such an awesome guest. I really really appreciate you sharing all this with us. Thank you.

Amanda Grace: 48:06

Angie, thank you so much.

Angie Colee: 48:10

That's all for now. If you want to keep that kick-ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high-octane dose of you Can Do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick-Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, spotify and wherever you stream your podcasts. I'm your host, angie Coley, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go kick some ass.