Permission to Kick Ass

Mental health and being a human in business with Shulamit Ber Levtov

• Angie Colee • Episode 166

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**content warning: we talk about suicidal ideation and how common it can be among entrepreneurs. If you're sensitive to that, proceed with caution. If you need help please dial 988**

INCREDIBLE. That's the word I've got for today's convo with Shulamit Ber Levtov, The Entrepreneur's Therapist. This one goes deep into the emotional rollercoaster of running a business, including the importance of self-care, vulnerability, and seeking support. If you're ready to get real about the mental health struggles entrepreneurs face, we'll show you how to navigate those dark moments with tenderness and care.

And a reminder: I'm glad you're here. I'm grateful every day you stay.

Can't-Miss Moments from This Episode:

  • Two words (and a tiny mindset shift) to make it easier to have those sweaty, difficult conversations we all dread...

  • My FAVORITE guest phrase, potentially ever: go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut (hear what inspired Shula to throw that out, to my utter delight)...

  • What to do when your boss is a freaking jerk (and you happen to be the boss)...

  • Two words (and a tiny mindset shift) to help you have hard conversations with a lot less discomfort and a lot more ease...

  • Normalizing the dark thoughts: so many entrepreneurs struggle in silence, and Shula offers a powerful reframe that might just save your (or someone you love's) life...

Bonus: tune in for a surprise cameo by Minnie the Evil Office Cat. 

Shula's bio:

Shulamit (she/her) is the Entrepreneurs' Therapist and co-founder of the Business Therapy Centre. She works with women business owners to care for their mental and emotional wellbeing in an era of relentless stressors that can make you want to lose your crap on the daily.

Shulamit has been an entrepreneur for over 27 years and has more than 22 years of professional experience applying therapeutic, coaching and somatic tools to support women's mental health and personal growth. In addition to working with clients 1:1, Shulamit teaches in private and university business programs and speaks locally, nationally and internationally about the intersection of mental health, trauma, financial psychology and entrepreneurship.

As an award-winning entrepreneur, masters-level, licensed trauma therapist and trauma survivor, with certifications in Brené Brown's Dare To Lead™ methodology, Trauma of Money, Nonviolent Communication and Yoga, Shula brings a unique perspective and approach to supporting women in business.

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Angie Colee:

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners, from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs helming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Coley, and let's get to it. Hey, and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass with me today, Joining me for the final recording of this season. They're probably hearing it in like June of 2024. We're recording this in November of 2023.

Angie Colee:

Welcome to the show. Shula Meet Bear Levtowth. Hi, angie, hi. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited for this one. It's been a long time coming. Eh yeah, I had to reschedule once, but actually you know we made a note to talk about that. Let's just get that out of the way. We had to reschedule this one because I was feeling sick one day and I was talking about. I felt a little bit guilty because part of me wants to maintain the production schedule. Part of me doesn't want to let my guests down. I also get really excited for these conversations.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yeah, you didn't want to be slug it Like. I mean, you know you gave some body language. You don't want to be sluggish, you don't want to be bummed out, you know you want to come with your full energy. And I said what is the name of the show. Permission to kick ass, which means permission to kick your ass into bed when you're sick.

Angie Colee:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and it's with that energy that I'm going to say yes, welcome to the show. Please tell us a little bit more about your business and what you do.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Sure Thanks for asking. So I'm Shula Meet Bear Levtowth. As you said, people are welcome to call me Shula for short, and I'm the entrepreneur's therapist.

Angie Colee:

Oh, yes, that means that I work, that's what I work.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

It is Well and see, this is why I'm here to give you permission to kick your ass into bed when you need it, or onto a break, or to do more. It depends on what's right for you, and that's the nature of the work that I do with women entrepreneurs supporting their mental and emotional well-being in relation to the emotional roller coaster that is running business in an era of relentless stressors that can make you want to lose your sight on the god daily.

Angie Colee:

I don't think anybody. I mean we talk about it. I think we talk about it at a high level on like the hustle and grind and the Feaster Famine cycle, and I've also kind of heard it talked about in a roundabout way from this bizarre concept that I fucking hate I've mentioned it before of work from anywhere. Take your laptop to the beach Top, to the beach. Are you kidding me? I want to be at the beach, to be at the beach. Yeah, stand in my laptop, screw that. But that turns from work anywhere at any time to work everywhere all the time, and I hate that. The answer is not more hours, it's not more time, it's not more of the same. That's not how you grow, especially not in a healthy way.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yes, and yet. So I have a great blog post about this. I'll share the link with you. Hustle culture is toxic, except when it's not Interesting. Tell me more.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Because when we are business owners, business survival can feel on a gut level like life or death and our quite natural response to life or death is to fight or to flee Right. But either way it's energy, that is to say. I want to make a little parenthesis here because for the trauma survivor among us, I'm talking about nervous system responses, not actual physiological responses. In the real world there are a range of other responses that and most frequently humans in the face of threat of bodily harm, will freeze or fun. And if that's what you did, that's what you did because it was your organism's most beautiful attempt to survive and that's to be celebrated, that you survived.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

And coming back, I'm talking about just the nervous system. What happens in the body when it feels like life or death? You're going to have that mobilizing energy in your body and you're going to have thoughts like I must work. I feel anxious when I don't work. I've got to do, do. Do I have to always be on? You'll wake up at 2 am with an idea and think I have to do that now, a sense of urgency, right.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

And so when we're engaged in that trance of hustle, it's important to pause and check where am I in my business? Because in early stage businesses we do work more than later and you can check. If you're later in your business and you're feeling that kind of survival anxiety to check about, well, wait a minute, maybe that was then and this is now. And if this is now and it's an instinct that I'm, an instinctual behavior that I've been repeating for five years, so much so that it's what feels normal and it's frightening to contemplate not doing it, then I maybe want to get some support for reexamining and attending to my nervous system so that I can kick my ass into bed when I'm sick, go to the beach when I want to examine how much work I actually need to do to be strategic, instead of doing all the things.

Angie Colee:

Or what you feel you should do. That drives me nuts. Yes, well, you're telling yourself.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yes, we have this internal voice. That may or may not be accurate and it needs some time and attention in order to be able to attend to it and figure out what it's trying to say and what we need to know. So, yeah, like hustle's bad, but also it can come from a place that makes a lot of sense.

Angie Colee:

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you called attention to that distinction because I've said before, I'm pro-hustle, I'm anti-grind and I think that's the part about it that peaks me is the implication that if you hustle, it's a 24-7 hustle, it's a live in your car hustle and there's a time and a place for that. But it should not be the norm. It shouldn't be the 80 to your 20. It should be the 20 to the 80.

Angie Colee:

If it's even that big of a piece of the pie. So I do believe that there's a time for hustle. I mean, look at the pandemic. The pandemic forced a lot of hustling and scrambling and pivoting and things like that.

Angie Colee:

So I'm not saying hustle is like well, you'll hear me, I'm never one extreme or the other. Avoid this, add this. This is 100% the thing. I'm a big advocate for figuring out what works for you, even if it's different from the norm, even if somebody looks at you like are you sure about that? Well, if they're not, I'm going to use a swear word here If they're not feeding you, financing you or fucking you, they can just take their opinion straight to down the road somewhere.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.

Angie Colee:

Yes, I have never heard that one before and that one is going in the book of best sayings. I like that you brought up like the anxious nervous system, the reaction to because I also want to join in that celebration. I've been in dangerous situations before. I was a firefighter when I was very young, also been an abusive relationship and I know like when the system hijacks you and takes over, you're just doing your best to get to that next point where you felt safe and you could survive. I would argue on any given day. Most of us are just doing our best. We have bad days, right. We get to be human, right, yeah.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

But even on a bad day, it's still our best for that day.

Angie Colee:

Yes, it might not be our lifetime best, but in that moment and on that day it's what we've got yes, oh my gosh, such an important distinction, because I feel like we've got best conflated that best is always up here, best is levels, depending on where you are on any given day.

Angie Colee:

I mean that ties in perfectly to what we said about postponing this, too, because could I put on a podcast those days that I felt sick? Yes, technically speaking, could I bring my best? No, absolutely not. Like that's the energy that I want to bring to the podcast my best, and I would rather push that off until I can be my best. I was just doing my best. That day, though we're saying best a lot.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Exactly, and it was your best response to what was happening in the moment to go to bed, and when we're not fully resourced and we choose to push, like there are times, yes, when we will, but when that's consistent over time, it's not a win. It's really not a win, because it's like putting a hole in the bottom of your gas tank you can keep filling it, but it's gonna keep running out the bottom. Or, to put it differently, stressors accumulate and the issue is not stress, it's the accumulation of stress without time to the rest and digest phase in between. And so there is this assumption that the more I work, the better it is, and we don't look at the productivity in the moment, just having our, because this is a thing we reproduce from employee culture. Yes, about how you have to have from nine to five, your ass has to be in the seat and you have to be, otherwise it's what is it called wage theft or something which I think is like an atrocious wage theft Anybody who thinks that we can.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

As if they're not making their billions off our backs to begin with wage theft, my ass. But anyway, we reproduce that with ourselves and our businesses and think that we always have to have our ass in the seat, because the boss who's us, by the way, is. You know we're gonna be putting our survival and jeopardy in that way. But when we're in business for ourselves, you know the cost of that. At work, we have sick days At work, we can find another job. But this is our dream, this is our vision that we're wanting to bring to life, and it's a long-term sustainability issue and we can't mortgage ourselves without feeling the consequences of that, you know.

Angie Colee:

Amen. I was glad that you brought up the boss being a jerk. Yeah, that's the case in this business. If your boss is cracking the whip and really making you work around the clock, maybe it's time to have a stern talk into that person, and by that I mean look in the mirror and say why am I being so mean to myself? Yeah, I feel like that is the theme that keeps coming up. For today, I had I was a guest on somebody else's podcast earlier and we talked about ADHD, because I'm recently diagnosed, like just about 18 months ago, and I was talking about having to learn to rewire and like develop new tools to help myself succeed, because in my 20s and early 30s I was all about tripping adrenaline like panic mode. Stack even more work onto me, give me impossible deadlines that's what I need to function and I can produce it a super.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, I could produce it at a super high level. But then when I got to that one burnout phase after working four months, 18 to 20 hour days on this super stressful thing that somebody in my department was hell bent on destroying because it wasn't her baby Beat all the odds, produce this beautiful catalog and literally had my boss demand that I take comp days. And for those three comp days I literally sat on my front porch and stared at nothing for like eight hours a day. I couldn't. I couldn't even, and that scared me Like I could barely function. After that happened and I went what if I can't come back from this? What if I poured everything into that project? And that was it. So I resolved from that. That was really the turning point for me of like I don't want that anymore. I need to learn a better way, and I don't always win at doing it better. Sometimes I fall into that old burn it all down and build something better, because that feels good when I'm anxious, but yeah, this is one of those things it becomes.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

You know, we develop habitual ways of being in the world in order to manage the unmanageable, mm-hmm. And again, when we come into business for ourselves, it's a real opportunity to re-examine all that. Just like life, just like marriage. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, people get married without a thought about you know, without like. They don't, in the majority, have a plan for how they're gonna attend that relationship and how it's going to flourish and grow. They, it's just, you know, we, just, we go from day to day because that's what, that's what it is to be human. And the same with business. We fall into it because we think it'll be a good idea, without putting systems and processes in place, without starting to think about how actually do I wanna be in relationship with myself and my business, and without like an unexamined life I forget what the phrase is, but it can be really painful and difficult and an unexamined business when we don't stop to say, hey, wait a minute. Do I wanna reproduce all the things I've always done here as well?

Angie Colee:

Oh, such a great point to bring up, because I feel all of us fall into that trap, I think, especially if we don't have an entrepreneurial role model or we didn't grow up in a business owning family of. We've been socialized especially here in the States, highly capitalist nation to be good workers, to be good employees and that's the only filter that we bring to our business, especially the first, second, third time around that you're trying things. So it's a real shocker to the system, especially for, like freelance creatives that I work with. I know other service providers, like in the mental health industry, that feel the same way. Like you recreate those systems.

Angie Colee:

But you've also like quintupled your workload because now you're also the person handling HR and paying all of the bills and booking all of the appointments and going out and getting the business and then the fulfilling on the business. Like you've made your job about five times harder. And then you're looking at your compensation going well, but I'm charging at the top end of the hourly range. Why do I feel like I'm burning it? That's why there's the disconnect right there. You're doing the work of five people and you're not charging.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

You're not. Well, you're not, yes, and even when you are charging, still the cognitive load is very heavy, and that's the difference. You're not just like the author of the E-Mith he called. I forget his name, but the E-Mith is a great book for folks to read. He calls it technicians having an entrepreneurial seizure Ooh, which I really like, you know. So you're really good at what you do. You're a really great graphic designer, you're a great copywriter, you're a great mechanic.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

You get frustrated with your working conditions and you say, well, fuck this, I can go be a mechanic by myself, I don't need my boss to do that. I can write awesome copy. Yeah, I'm a kind of copy I want with the kind of clients I want, not the soul-sucking kind of work that I'm doing here. So, fuck that, I'm going to do it for myself, and you can, you're really good at that, and you don't know about the rest of it, and that's the entrepreneurial seizure of the fuck the boss, I'm gonna do it for myself. But then what? Yep, right, and so you have that work as you say. But then you add on the cognitive load and people are not aware of what it takes to hustle, for contracts really is what it is Is to create your own work. Doing the work is maybe fun and you might be great at it. You could do it in your sleep, maybe, but all the other aspects there's a really extreme learning curve around all those things.

Angie Colee:

It really is. And there's an insidious extra layer that I've noticed with the I work a lot with creatives, folks who are copywriters, photographers, graphic designers and in service-based businesses is that they have this belief about creativity that it has to be new and fresh and built from the ground up every single time. And so it was interesting when I worked with people one of my friend, chris Orzakowski hey, chris, his philosophy is we fight downhill battles, and when I was contracting as the copy chief for his agency, it was like we literally looked for clients that had easy wins for us and yeah, if we developed a deeper relationship with them, we would go to bat and fight those harder battles. But like when we're coming on board and we're just getting to know them, we're not picking the my brain is not coming up with a proper analogy here but we're not picking like the battle royale. So we're going to show them the low hanging fruit and why it's easy to work with us.

Angie Colee:

And then it shocked people when I would tell them about that that I was like no, we had like the same seven email welcome sequence that we would recommend for everybody that needed a welcome sequence. And by that I don't mean everybody got the same exact email, copy and pasted. We knew what the flow was going to be. We knew what the topic of each email was going to be. It's going to be that client's voice and stories and offers. So in that way it's going to be completely unique. Not built from scratch, not built from the ground up, built on a framework that we already know works.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Flexibility within a structure.

Angie Colee:

Yes, yes, yeah. That blew my mind when I learned that creativity loves constraints. Blue sky is a shutdown. Completely Like that's too many choices. Yeah, yeah, but if you give me this one little thing and you need to solve the problem. But you can only do it this way ago. No, I'm not going to do it that way. I found another way.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Because that's how creativity is. You know, like when you put cement down, the plant is going to grow all kinds of interesting ways to get around the piece of cement, right, yeah. And structure helps the nervous system. It doesn't have to cope with what is happening and the newness of the environment. Its creative resources can be directed toward creativity instead of handling the stressors of the unfamiliar. And that's as true in mental health work supporting your mental and emotional well-being as it is with creativity.

Angie Colee:

And that's why it's interesting I have this conversation with so many creative folks. But if you're not a systems thinker, then find the a systems thinker, Somebody that can help you set the. It's worth saving up if you can't afford it to have someone help you set up systems. Consult with you, figure out what your process looks like, Because you're going to burn out so fast if you've got your client getting. You've figured out all of the mechanics, but you're still having to sit down every day and think, okay, crap, this person needs to be onboarded. What do I do for onboarding? Where are they in the onboarding process? That work is so hard.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

I don't have a diagnosis, but I do know. I do know that I'm not neurotypical Me either, and I would say ADHD are letters that work, that resonate for me, although I don't have an official diagnosis. And those kinds of things are very, very difficult for me and having to rethink it every time. I remember when I was taught to document my processes and make checklists, and I still have paper checklists and I've, for example, in my bookkeeping process and when I've talked to a new bookkeeper over the years or talked to a new accountant over the years and they've kind of been all I rolly about my process and they want me to do it this way or that way, and I'm like, no, this is my checklist, I've used it from day one. My eyes recognize the app I use for this. They don't have to navigate an unfamiliar environment. They take comfort in the way that this is laid out. They trust in the process.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

My whole organism can relax, cause, like I'm also dyscalculic or have dyscalculia, however you want to say that, which is it's like dyslexia, but for numbers to begin with, but then it's so much more because it has to do with spatial representation as well. Just an example is like if you're trying to make a photocopy and the output is not laid the same way as the glass on the photocopier, I cannot figure out which way the thing goes on the plate to make it come out the way it's supposed to. On the other, like I can't, I bump into things because my brain cannot calculate the difference, the distance between things. So I'm I look clumsy, but it's not that I'm clumsy, it's that my brain can't figure out the relationships between things.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Time is a problem for me, time, and that's a dyscalculic thing. So I people can look up dyscalculia, d-y-s-c-a-l-c-u-l-i-a to find out more. So, coming back to that, where was I? Oh, yes, keeping track of things. And it's hard enough for me to do my money, stuff with number problems and the trauma and I'm, as a mental health professional, using that specifically to mean psychological trauma that I experienced in school and at home around math problems that having the structure in place and using what works for me and sticking to that no matter what, makes it possible for me to joyfully do my books and pay my bills, which is a really big deal.

Angie Colee:

Yes, I love that you brought all of this up. I mean, I'm sorry that you suffered through that and thank you for sharing that story. That means a lot to me because that's one thing that I really want to highlight through this show and through this work. I used to be somebody that had a certain set of assumptions based on behaviors that I met from people. So if I encountered somebody with time blindness, as somebody who is like on time to the points of being slightly anal, retentive and definitely like flipping the switch from happy go lucky to angry, I can be irrational when it comes to being on time. That's just seems to be how I'm hardwired. And also, now that I understand how different brains work differently and I can see things like this is somebody that chronically struggles with. It's not a judgment on me. It's not necessarily that they're disrespecting my time, like there are ways that we can work around this and figure out.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yes, the brain works differently. Yeah, yeah, having that insight helps a lot, with compassion, I think, for ourselves and for others, to be able to say to ourselves it's not about me, yeah, their brain is different and that's why I love this.

Angie Colee:

We talk about competition in business and it's interesting. I was on another show earlier today where somebody she's a business coach and I'm a business coach and she was like I don't normally bring on competitors and I was like, okay, like we can talk about that after we record. I'm here to bring value to your audience and that's really all that matters. And by the time we got done with it, she was like, oh my gosh, we love this. And I said there's eight billion people on the planet. I can't work with all of them. You can't work with all of them. I'm not going to like some of them. You're not going to like some of them. Like there's more than enough room for all of us to teach all of these things.

Angie Colee:

And, keeping that in mind, how this ties back to what we're talking about. Like I've encountered folks who work with the wrong fit or they don't have that compassion or that experience to understand how somebody else's brain works differently, and then it just becomes a point of friction and frustration. Well, I'm just asking her to download this app. Why can't she do that? It's so freaking simple.

Angie Colee:

Well, from Shula's side of the fence, it's really not simple. It's adding a whole bunch of complexity and really going to get you not feeling your best, not performing your best. If we can understand that we work a lot better with people, even if that means okay, well, I mean, shula, I really can't work outside of this process that I've built, and I understand that you can't work outside of the process that you've built, so maybe I can ask around and find somebody that can work with you on this, that, like, knows your program and your preferred apps. Why don't I just do that and help you out instead? Instead of one of us is trying to force the other to adapt and it's just not going to happen.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

And the honest conversation that that takes. I think you know a lot of people will spend a long time kind of biting their nails and sweating it out, trying to avoid the sweaty conversation, the 10 minute sweaty conversation that leads to so much relief. And in many cases, what I have found is really deep connection, because when we share vulnerability with one another, hey, I've noticed that this happens and I'm noticing in me, like confused, because I'm not really understanding what's happening, and I'm feeling kind of frustrated and I bet, if I'm feeling this way, something's going on with you. Could we talk it over?

Angie Colee:

You know, brilliant. Everybody rewind that, take notes. That was such a great framework for having a difficult conversation, one that makes you super nervous, like I want you to replace whatever script you have in your head if you're playing both parts, if you're in the shower running your little marionette show having your side of the argument and then switching over and having their side of the argument. No, you can't predict what they're going to do. You can't control what they're going to do. You can only control what you do, and if you focus on connecting like a human being, instead of trying to find the right words to force them to do it your way, you're going to have a lot more of an actual connection, make more of an impact and be much more likely to achieve what you're trying to achieve.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yeah, I'm a certified trainer in nonviolent communication and that's what informs my way of relating around, especially at like altogether, but especially with difficult conversations. And the fundamental assumption of nonviolent communication is that there are basic human needs. These are fundamental, essential human needs that are the same across time, space and culture, independent of person, location, action, object or time. So, like justice, yeah, fairness, nourishment, joy, beauty, those are universal human needs and the assumption is the two assumptions. That's one everybody has universal human needs and the second assumption is everybody's doing their very, very best to meet a particular need. We might not know what that need is, but we can assume that there is some human need at play that matters to me as much as it matters to them. Their strategies might suck, we might really hate what they're doing to attempt to meet that need, but for me, just that idea, oh, there's really something important and universal that really matters.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Look at how frantic they are about this. There must be something that matters very deeply to them and I can get curious about that and say like, when I see you at this, like a dog with a bone, I bet there's something that really matters to you and I'm curious. Could you tell me Like I'm curious to know, when I want to connect, what's happening with you, what's alive in you, what matters to you, and you know then hopefully, but at least it's easier on me, like this is what I really love about it. It sounds all altruistic and nice, like I'm thinking about the other person's human needs, and sure it is. However, what I've observed is, when I think about it this way, I'm not shit talking them or me in my head, yes, yes, about what a judgmental bitch I am and what a pain in the ass they are. I'm like there's a need, there's a need at play. What could it be Right? And that just feels better for me.

Angie Colee:

I love all of that. It's such a win-win-win on multiple levels. It gets you so much closer to actually solving the problem. And, like I know that there are over analyzers like me, I can't help myself but to dig in and go. I wonder why they're doing that, and sometimes I can't resist the temptation to hypothesize and to go down that rabbit hole. But what I've learned from one of my mentors? I'm not certified, but I think I do a pretty good job and I'm learning more each day. I need some good book recommendations I would like that but what I have learned about all of this is like with this particular example I gave if I can't help myself, but I hypothesize and I'm assuming something about somebody, I'll go okay. So here's what's happening. Here's what I'm feeling. I'm wondering if this is happening with you, is that accurate? And my way off base? And I turn it into a conversation versus an accusation and I think that's really the key. You said curiosity. Curiosity is the key. Instead of assuming, I ask questions.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

It's okay, yeah, yeah, and curiosity, the way I've been taught, is one of the components of compassion. It's like people they think compassion and they kind of get eye-rolly. And also, if the other person's being an asshole you don't want to like, compassion for them is like what? Like they're an asshole, why would I be compassionate to them? And getting curious about it is opening the door to that compassionate space where you can connect with the other person without being all woo. You know, it's just simple curiosity.

Angie Colee:

Well, and I mean, everything is relative. Like, one of my biggest pet peeves in terms of like online troll arguments is the people that argue reality is reality. There are 8 billion people on this planet, my friend. Which version of those 8 billion realities is the truth? The capital T truth? No, we're all coming into this with our own baggage, culture, history, background filters that we're looking through things. I mean, even if you just look at the perspective of people that believe this is a good, safe world versus people that believe this is a bad, dangerous world, that's two drastically different truths that we're seeing in observing the exact same situation Like ah, that drives me nuts. Reality is not reality. Reality is your perception, and your perception can change if you let curiosity open the door.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Kitty. Yeah, oh, there's my pretty tag. Yes.

Angie Colee:

I'm so sad that Stella is not here crashing the meeting right now, because we could have two cats on the podcast. Hi Kitty, I'm keeping all of this in, by the way.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

I love it when Kitty is crashing, that's fine, she lives in the office with me so there's nowhere else to put her and she often shows. She always shows up for clients and often shows up for podcasts and workshops and webinars and things.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, we're going to have to send this to my friend B. We had one when I was on the road. I'm in this hotel and the bed is behind me and I've got my desk kind of set up in an L-shape but the table connects right to the bed and my cat, stella, keeps walking across the bed up onto the table and sitting on my show and I keep moving her back. But I'm trying to listen to him, so you just see me looking into the camera and then just very calmly move the cat back. Oh, yeah, continue.

Angie Colee:

I did that three or four times and then he asked for the video because he wanted to make some social media clips and those were the city busts. That's priceless. Hey, we went off on a little bit of a tangent, but that's what I love about these conversations. I don't come into this with an agenda, wondering where we're going to go, but I am curious Nice to tie it in. What got you into in your therapeutic practice working with entrepreneurs specifically? Was there like a turning point, or did you always know you wanted to go into this?

Shulamit ber Levtov:

So, long story short, I went to school when I was 1924. Social work Got diverted out of that and in my 30s was doing work that was painful in my body and by the end of it was had sustained an injury, a repetitive strain injury, and I had to do my own occupational rehab. So it made sense because along with my jobs, I had had what now we call side hustles, supporting women with their mental health and personal growth, and I had always done that all along. So when I became injured it would make sense to go back to school, go back to my roots, and I did, and I wanted to get my masters before I was 50 and I did it. I'm so proud of myself.

Angie Colee:

It's never too late.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

And I knew, as a woman in her 50s entering a new career at the bottom, that I was not going to have great job prospects. So when I started my masters I knew I was going to go into private practice and it had to be a sustainable business that was going to serve me basically until the day I died. So I also observed amongst my peers that many folks who were in private practice struggled to have a viable business and so right out of my master's program I started in business training, business coaching, business programs, masterminds hanging out at the chamber all that stuff, because that's how you grow a business when you're starting is hanging out with other business owners. And I was the only therapist, because most therapists are not entrepreneurial thinkers. And I was in a privileged position where folks who wouldn't normally disclose things on the emotional side of business to their fellows would kind of whisper in my ear about it, because whether you are or not a friendly, kind, compassionate person, people assume that about you when they learn you're a therapist. And fortunately I was able to meet what they gave me with care and I started.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

You know I was in my own entrepreneurial journey and experienced the emotional roller coaster and how hard that is on you, and I heard from other folks that this was the case. And I don't know if you remember the old Reese's Peanut Butter Cup commercials where the peanut butter would be going up the escalator and the chocolate would be coming down the escalator and one of them would trip and they would collide and they went hey, this tastes really good and that's how Reese's Peanut Butter Cups were born. My mental health mind collided with my business mind and I went hey, this is a really needed support for entrepreneurs, someone who is a trained therapist, who knows how to listen but who also understands the context of entrepreneurship and the unique stressors. And that's how the entrepreneur's therapist was born.

Angie Colee:

I love that and it's such important work too, because I'm sure that there are other folks that identify with this line of thinking. For a long time I went through business crying my damnedest to separate here's business Angie over here and here's professional Angie over here, and they would collide in very uncomfortable ways. That left me in anxiety spirals at night going did I just ruin my chances at a career? They think I'm self judgment, right Nasty. Until there was one day I was in a masterminds and I was supposed to be talking about my win, my challenge, the goal for next week, and I opened my mouth to speak and what came out was I think my relationship is over and I just melted down.

Angie Colee:

That was not what I came to that meeting to say. That was something that I wanted to keep to myself and also it was an abusive relationship. It wasn't a great relationship. He had deliberately woken me up the past three nights, so I'm operating on very little sleep and I'm borderline hysterical at this point, but still pretending like I can just go have business meetings like normal right, the stuff that we kind of convince ourselves is necessary.

Angie Colee:

But that was the beginning of breaking down the wall for me, because I got instantaneously so many private messages on Slack, so many emails from people just going. I can't believe my ears. I had no idea that you were going through all of that by yourself. That's not okay, and I'm here if you need a listening ear or I'll send you like I'll be your back. Whatever you need, please tell me, I'm here to help, and just know that you're not alone in all of this. And I suddenly went like oh, my business buddies can be my friends too, and that's not to say that I'm going to come to them with like, oh my God, you don't even understand how pissed off I am today. Like, I understand the appropriate context of a mastermind, and also a mastermind should be a place where you can say I'm struggling with this thing at home. That's made it really hard to focus on my business. I'm struggling with this thing in my business. That's making it really hard to be at home, because I'm a human that is actually in business, not a machine.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yes, yes, I say. I give keynote talks about mental health and entrepreneurship, and part of what I say in those talks is it's not a question of if we will be affected, but when and to what degree, because we are doing hard work and we are humans doing this work and our lives and our businesses are not separate.

Angie Colee:

As much as we try to pretend. And if you're out there still operating under that, more power to you. All of my love to you. Hopefully, when those worlds collide it's delicious like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup and not melting down into masterminds like me. But welcome to human life, human business. That's exactly why I created this show to begin with, because I had again that disconnect. I was at so many business conferences where I would just be convinced that Angie is over here, the perpetual screw up that will never make it to stage like those shining stars that have it all together and they've got the missing piece. The missing piece was me not putting myself out there, being so paranoid that I would make a mistake that would end everything for me, like I was the missing piece.

Angie Colee:

You were the missing piece in your own life.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Yeah, I think, taking appropriate as you say, appropriate risks where you're relatively certain that you will receive a response that will be helpful, yes, and disclosing, where you feel safe, what's happening with you In the majority. I have heard story after story after story of folks who have said something finally and been met with so much care and kindness. I was at a Gala fundraiser for an organization, a Canadian organization, called the Entrepreneurs Mental Health Association, and the woman who founded the association told her story. So she said this publicly, so I'm not sharing anything that's private. Something had happened in her business that had led to a big depression for her, to the point where she was thinking about ending her life, and she thought about this a lot and alone.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Her partner was kind but not a business owner, and she said I finally took the risk of speaking to one person, another business owner, who was a client of hers actually, and she's in a field where it didn't matter, it's not like she was a therapist and she disclosed to that client kind of a little bit of what she was going through and then that person responded this fellow entrepreneur responded very kindly to the point where this person who's giving the talk disclosed that she was thinking of ending her life and the other person said me too, oh wow.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

And then she shared with another person, another business owner, and that business owner also said me too. And that's not to say that every business owner thinks about ending their life, but it is common. You know, the business press has been talking since 2018 about an epidemic of depression and suicide among entrepreneurs. So thoughts of ending your life because of the level of stress that you're experiencing in your business and you don't know what to do and you feel completely alone is more common than you would think, and the relief of finding someone who responds with care and then all the more so can relate, can be so relieving.

Angie Colee:

Absolutely. I was so synchronous. It's just kind of giving me goosebumps as to how all of these conversations I've been having this week are so connected. I was telling somebody earlier about when I got officially diagnosed and it was wrestling with thoughts like that and I want to be clear that I'm someone that can have those darker thoughts and not feel compelled to act on them and also recognize that those are very extreme thoughts, that I need to examine this. I need to figure out what's causing this and you know, see what I can do to address this.

Angie Colee:

So what led me to getting my ADHD diagnosis was that, basically, at the same time like a big confluence of events, including the fact that all of my tools that I developed for being productive with an ADHD brain they failed. I could not get them to work. No matter what I tried, all of my like changing the environment, setting a timer, none of my tools worked. And at the same time, I'm experiencing a big personal upheaval and I'm super just brain fried and this quiet little thought would sneak in from the side like a ninja and go. This would be easier if I wasn't here and, like I said, I never felt compelled to act on it, but that scared me especially how quiet and unemotional it was. I'm a super emotional, super reactive person. I've worked a lot to get as less reactive, less responsive as I am, and so to have a almost cold feeling thought sneak in like that.

Angie Colee:

So I got brave enough at a meeting last October to share that journey and say this is why I got diagnosed. I've been struggling with the idea of being medicated for this, but it's working for me and I'm glad that I got help. And they asked me about that and I said it was that thought that snuck in, that said I need to figure out what's going on here. And when I said it out loud, one of my girlfriends got up out of her chair, came across the porch and hugged me and said I want you here and I just need you to know that.

Angie Colee:

And that started a practice that I've been trying to do of just letting people know. Every once in a while I'm thinking of you and smiling and I'm glad that you're here and I'm glad to know you. You're a great human being and I'm not telling you what you should do, dear listener, but I've found that it has been such a worthwhile practice. I don't do it perfectly, but if I'm doing something in the next few weeks and Shula's name comes across my desk or the episode comes back ago, oh my gosh. I listened to this day. It was so great and I thought of you and I hope you're well it makes a difference.

Angie Colee:

It really does.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

It does make a big difference. It is very touching to receive appreciation or just little thoughts from people. There are two things that are really important about what you said. One is that many women who have ADHD, who are undiagnosed adult women, have the experience that you have of having thoughts of ending their lives. It's very common and many people, many, many people, for no reason or many reasons, can have thoughts like that, of like this would be easier if I weren't here anymore, or just these random kind of thoughts that slide in, kind of unemotional, like that.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

It's well within the range of common human experience to have those thoughts and, as you say, when you have those thoughts, it's a sign that something in you is asking for care, yes, that your distress is enormous.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

You don't even have to be depressed to have those thoughts.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

In fact, the fact that, like ending your life in depression, do not necessarily go together and that's one of the things that makes it hard for people to understand, because many lay people and we get the idea that depression and ending your life go together, but they and so you think, well, I'm not depressed, so this can't be a problem really, when, in fact, you can have those thoughts for reasons or no reasons, but I really want to emphasize how human that is and how common it is. You would be surprised when you go to suicide awareness training, like the kind that we have to take as therapists, for example, and then you know. Of course they teach us the proper interventions too, but just the awareness level. I forget what the statistic is, but it's something enormous about what percentage over the lifetime of people will have that thought, that kind of thought, and it's important to distinguish too that in a way it's a kind of a coping thought. Yeah, that if I can't handle this, at least there's a way out.

Angie Colee:

Oh, I never thought of it that way, like a strange kind of comfort.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

It is a strange kind of comfort and I'm distinguishing between having the thoughts and making a plan, because making a plan is very dangerous, very, very dangerous and less common. And if you're having thoughts and you have a plan, I would invite you to consider confiding in someone that you think is safe about the fact that you're having these thoughts and that you've got a plan for it. But having the thoughts there are many people.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

As a therapist Now I work exclusively with entrepreneurs, but previous to this I was a trauma therapist and many folks who experience trauma, depression, anxiety, those kinds of things live with these kinds of thoughts ongoingly and again, it's a strange kind of comfort and they also learn, like how to live with the thoughts that I want to die or I might be thinking about dying. You learn how to live with that, yes, but that's just. I'm saying all this to normalize and to invite out of the dark and into the open. But this is just part of the range of human experience and it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. It means that you deserve care.

Angie Colee:

I love that distinction. I've long been a fan of saying like shame thrives in the shadows. So whenever we can shine a light on it and realize that, like the shadows have distorted things and they've made things bigger and they've made things that aren't there seem real and scary, right, shine a light on it and see the truth. And that could be through a trusted confidant. Because I totally agree, I'm not talking about sharing your deep personal things with a random stranger, because they haven't necessarily earned the right to know that inner world of yours because they haven't shown.

Angie Colee:

They can treat it with tenderness, right. But to look at a thought like that, as disturbing as it can be, when it first pops into your head, and say this is a signal, something in me deserves care. I want to show, I want a billboard, I want a t-shirt, I want to shout that from the rooftops Like it is normal You've got people in your corner, even when it feels like you are entirely alone in your world. Feel like hey, message me and say, hey, angie, I'm feeling alone and I will send you a love note right back, I promise you. Yeah, that's one thing that I really want to end in entrepreneurship this feeling of I'm alone, I'm a screw up, I'm no, please, please. We're all in this together, trying to build a better world through what we're building.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

And this is the value of sharing our stories, right Is that we get met. People look at us with recognition and relief and we get relief. We get seen and heard and understood.

Angie Colee:

Yes, that Mary Ann Williamson quote always comes back to me. It's like as we shine our light, we give others permission to do the same. I've always loved that quote. I'll make sure that it's in the show notes because it's such a great one. But I've always looked at that especially in that lens of competition of if I've got a candle and I use mine to light yours, did that diminish my flame in any way? No, and it made the room brighter, and now we can both go light more candles until this is just like blinding and brilliant. And so that's the way I like to look at all of this. And wow, oh my gosh, I'm just.

Angie Colee:

I'm going to have my cocktail tonight and just sit and think about how this was like the perfect episode to end a recording season on. I think we are talking about a lot of important stuff that is going to benefit a lot of entrepreneurs, and now I will say please share more about how we can learn about you, your business and anybody who wants to reach out and start work with you. How can we do that?

Shulamit ber Levtov:

Sure. Thank you for asking. What I would invite is that folks would subscribe to my newsletter. It's at shulaca slash newsletter. This is where you'll get like the really meaty stuff. I spend a lot of time and energy doing a long form writing and that you know that's where we can connect, that's where we can have conversations, because you just have to hit reply on that email and here we are talking to each other in a safer space than the crazy world of digital. You know social media, which I love for its own reasons, and I like intimate conversation, and when you subscribe to my newsletter, you have a direct line to me and you get the benefit of the thinking like you've heard about here today.

Angie Colee:

Nobody does this alone Nobody and you don't have to be alone in this anymore. Find your group. We'll help you find your group. Reach out and say that you're ready. That's what we're here for. Thank you so, so much for being on the show. I can imagine this as being a recurring segment of permission to kick ass, because I think the mental health, the self-care, the fortifying yourself and getting the right people in your corner is such a critical part of business and I want to talk about it even more. So thank you so much for being on the show. You're welcome.

Shulamit ber Levtov:

I'll give a little teaser for our next conversation. Yeah, Everybody assumes that self-care requires time out for your business. But what if it didn't?

Angie Colee:

Oh, I must know more. I must that we're going to leave it on a cliffhanger. Yeah, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for bringing that light and that energy. I appreciate you so much. Thanks, angie Bye. That's all for now. If you want to keep that kick ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose of you can do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, spotify and wherever you stream your podcasts. I'm your host, angie Coley, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go kick some ass.