Permission to Kick Ass

Buying (and building) your business with Bernie 'Mr. Mustache' DeSantis III

• Angie Colee • Episode 169

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Ever take over a company after working for the owner? That's exactly what today's guest, Bernie DeSantis III, did... and it came with its own unique learning curve.  Tune in as Bernie shares his entrepreneurial journey from corporate trainer to business owner. We rant about a little of everything, from the fine art of networking to improving sales. Listen now!

Can't-miss moments:

  • Bernie shares a neat trick for getting in front of the right people, even if you realize belatedly you're in front of the wrong people (this one is so simple, I'm angry I never thought of it!)

  • Hard truth: being good at a thing doesn't automatically make you good at business. Here's how Bernie made that transition...

  • Don't send Valentine's Day cards to people you didn't enjoy working with, and other cautionary outreach tales...

  • Stop "pitch slapping" people! You know, that thing where you pitch someone your services before even getting to know them? Do THIS instead...

  • "No" hasn't killed me yet... check out this approach for feeling the discomfort and making the ask anyway...

Bernie's bio:

Bernie DeSantis III owns Insignia Training Partners, a premier learning and development company specializing in providing outsourced training services for businesses. He has over 2 decades of experience in training facilitation, marketing, and operations.

With a passion for fostering genuine relationships and communication, Bernie places a high value on the human element in business. He understands that success is not merely about money and numbers but about building meaningful relationships and consistently delivering exceptional service.

Insignia collaborates with businesses of all sizes, regardless of industry, to streamline and enhance their corporate training initiatives. Whether it's training new hires to sell widgets, software implementations, virtual workshops and webinars, strategy, coaching, or designing bespoke leadership development programs, we deliver efficient and cost-effective solutions, Bernie's commitment to excellence is unwavering.

In addition to his role as a business leader, Bernie is the President of Growth Mode Engaged, a National B2B Success Champion networking group. Bernie is father to a stepson and daughter, Benjamin and Gwendolyn. Bernie is also an ordained “Dude,” and legally authorized to perform wedding ceremonies in most states.

If you see Bernie on the streets, you will know him by his EPIC mustache. Seriously, he is probably twisting and training his 'stache like a cartoon villain right now.

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Angie Colee:

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners, from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs helming nine-figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, angie Coley, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend, bernie DeSantis. Say hi.

Angie Colee:

Hi I was so tempted to add Mr Mustache. You know what. I'm just going to do it, Bernie. Mr Mustache DeSantis, we're going to make it that calling card. I love it. Tell us a little bit about your business and what you do.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, absolutely so. I am the owner of Insignia Training Partners. We are a full-service learning and development company that provides contractor the new word is fractional resources in learning and development to organizations to help them complete, design, develop, deploy their training programs. We specialize in virtual training and workshops and we are industry, product and service agnostic. So I don't really care what your widget is, necessarily just whether or not you have a learner involved, and if you do, we're able to help.

Angie Colee:

Oh, that's fantastic. How did you get into that? And if you do, we're able to help.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Oh, that's fantastic. How did you get into that? So I have been in learning and development for close to 20 years. Now I'm actually the second owner of Insignia. I purchased the company January 1st of 2022. So I'm just over my second year of ownership. That was after working within the business for five years as a consultant, contract facilitator and virtual producer, but I got my start at Quicken Loans a little over two decades ago.

Bernie DeSantis III:

I was their very first leadership development trainer. My role there was as an experiential trainer, so it was really, really fun. What I got to do was take participants up-and-coming leaders in the organization and we would go out and do ropes courses or SWAT team trainings and we would build these full day immersive missions around the very same leadership skill sets that they would use in the office every day. Right, Things like communication, problem solving, teamwork, strategic thinking but, as you can imagine, the breakthroughs that people have when they're suspended three horse stories up in the air or have rubber bullets flying by their head they were pretty profound. You know most people would take something very professional how they interacted with their team or how they manage stress or how they manage their projects as an example, but for some people it was really, really personal. You know, after we would debrief all of the missions, they would go home and have conversations with their spouse or their kids or even their parents that in some cases they had put off for months or even years.

Bernie DeSantis III:

And it was that combination of feedback that really lit my fire for learning and development. Recognizing really early that I could be standing up on a ropes course or on a stage or now in this day and age, on camera and actually impact people's lives, how they approach their day to day. That was really really cool for me and very fulfilling. Even you know, today, being the owner of Insignia, I don't get to be on camera on stage quite as much, but that is why I get up and do what I do every day, knowing that I can have an impact, a positive impact, on people's careers and, in some cases, their personal life impact on people's careers and, in some cases, their personal life.

Angie Colee:

That is such an interesting story and a couple of things that I lit up on was okay. So a couple years ago I had my first live event, and I don't have a background in like education or training, and I just had a theory of what I wanted to accomplish and I wanted it to be different from every other event that was out there. So I invited several friends to Vegas. My theory is so dumb, but I love it. Could I get business buddies out to Vegas on the premise of we're going to talk business and we're going to drive bulldozers? And the answer is yes, I mean, you can get entrepreneurs to do just about anything. I didn't have a curriculum. When I went out to my people and said here's what I'm thinking, would you be in? And people were like hell, yes. But what happens?

Angie Colee:

And, as it turns out, everybody that said yes was a woman or presented as a woman, and we went to this company out in Vegas called Dig this shout out to Edmund and the team. They were fantastic and what happened? There was, and I didn't find this out until after the fact. So I didn't design this this way. That's why I'm trying to like articulate my thoughts on the fly here.

Angie Colee:

I didn't do this with intent, but what I discovered after the fact and talking to people was that everybody was a little bit scared. They were excited, but they were like, oh my gosh, this is so far out of what I normally do on a day-to-day base. I'm worried about whether I can do this. I'm worried about whether I can mess things up, and you know, the team at Dig this had everything so well laid out. It was one instructor for every two people.

Angie Colee:

So we actually felt like we were. We knew what we were doing. It was like, hey, julie, push this button, angie pushed this paddle. Like, and we're spinning around in a six ton excavator. It's bizarre, right, um? But we left that and we went right into a creative brainstorming session and everybody's like, oh my God, I feel like I can kick through walls, I feel like anything is possible. I feel like I'm ready for my excuses about why I can't do this or I can't do that, or like they're just gone now. And it was just such a cool experience as somebody that doesn't have the educational background to like, oh hey, we started out with something fun and we actually learned something about ourselves. How cool is that.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, really really cool. You know, and and I've seen a lot of experiential events um in throughout the course of my 20 years Um, you know one guy that I actually I met recently. He does a whole experiential day using Legos.

Angie Colee:

I must know more.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Such a cool program that he's got. I'll have to look him up for you and introduce you. But absolutely amazing, Full eight hour day and all you're doing is doing these little missions throughout the course of the day with Legos. You know, maybe it's it's you have somebody communicating from a different room how you build that thing, or just a variety of different topics that he covers. But I mean, imagine business learning and all you're doing all day is playing with Legos. So cool.

Angie Colee:

Well, that's so funny. A few weeks ago I posted on social media that I have a theory, and of course I haven't written and paid it off just yet. A theory, and of course I haven't written and paid it off just yet, but I was asking people if we were in a room together building Legos and I knew nothing about this guy. So this is really funny. It's like how would you approach building something super awesome and cool? Would you be like I need the direction packet and I need everything sorted into piles and then I build it step by step? Do I need to look at the finished project and reverse engineer from there? Do I just need to, like, build whatever my heart is telling me to build today, whether or not it meets the end goal of the super cool thing we're building or something else?

Angie Colee:

And the funny thing is I had a whole bunch of people say something else, but then they all wrote in and said something very, very similar which was like I need to understand who we're building this for, why we're building this, what this is going to accomplish at the end of the day, and then I can figure out which one of those categories I'm in, and I just thought that was really funny. I wonder if he has a similar like outcome or program design. Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Super funny, we get to play. I think business is adult playtime when done right, and if we're building a business that makes us miserable, then boo on that.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, that sucks and kind of missing the point. Yeah.

Angie Colee:

Oh my goodness. So you bought this business and I presume just really bought that because you enjoyed it.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I absolutely love pouring into other people, whether it's standing on stage, coaching, mentoring, whatever the case may be. You know, it's actually an interesting story how it came up. I you know first few projects that I worked on with my predecessor. They were pretty high profile projects with Ford Motor Company, we were working with Ernst Young at the time, hertz Rent-A-Car, and you know I always got great results when I was in corporate not to pat myself on the back too much, but you know always were able to show great results. And I got similar results on these projects.

Bernie DeSantis III:

And as they were ramping down, I went back to my predecessor and I said you know, and I really enjoy this lifestyle, right, I like the option of being able to choose which clients I work with or don't, which is a blessing, making better money than I ever did in corporate. I really am enjoying the variety of projects. How do I get more involved? How do I do more of this? How can I help you?

Bernie DeSantis III:

And she came back and said well, listen, bernie, I've been running this business for 15 years and I absolutely love it, but I'm ready to retire and I've been looking for someone to sell the company to for about two years now, but I didn't want to just sell it to somebody who would ultimately tear it apart or not take care of my clients in the way that I have all these years, and I've never had feedback or results like I've got from you. I think you're the right person to take this over so kind of godfather-esque, minus the horse's head in the bed. She made me an offer I couldn't refuse and you know, here I am today.

Angie Colee:

Okay, I love that. That is a great way to brighten up my Wednesday. We didn't have the horse in the bed, but that's fantastic. I love and I want to unpack this for other people, especially like if you are at the beginning stages of your business, this is the power of asking for what you want in action.

Angie Colee:

I was talking to a new coaching client just the other day who said well, but I don't feel like I can reach out to somebody after we had this call, because they know who I am and they know what I offer and I figure they'll reach out if they have a need.

Angie Colee:

And I said, ok, and often we think we're being super clear in our own heads, but we haven't really closed the loop and said if you want to do X, y or Z, here are your next steps. So in those instances, you know, sometimes I go back and I look at my messages and I ask myself have I been clear? And if I haven't, or if I think that I can get their attention and show them my enthusiasm for this project or this consulting, whatever we're about to do, I will take a chance and reach out and say you know, in case I didn't make it clear. I really, really like what you're doing and I would love to be involved, and here are some things that I'm thinking, here are some ideas that I have. Would love to talk about this with you further. Right, I'll just try to keep the conversation going instead of assuming they know what I want and assuming that telling them what I want or asking for I want for what I want is some sort of inconvenience because it's not- no.

Bernie DeSantis III:

I mean, the worst thing that they're going to say is no, right, and we've heard no throughout our entire lives. It's really not that big of a deal, but for me personally, I would rather have that hard no and no for sure, than a soft, maybe right.

Bernie DeSantis III:

And sitting there wondering whether or not it's going to work out. You know I would rather go in ask the question. If they say no, cool, then that means I can move on to the next opportunity, the next project. But that soft maybe it causes anxiety, like you sit there and you wonder, yes, no, thank you. Oh my gosh.

Angie Colee:

I think I used to lean toward like the, maybe because in the back of my mind, hope is still no thank you, touch with them. But now I'm moving on to other things, because and I'm not letting that occupy my brain space anymore that's fantastic and like we've heard, no all our lives, friendly reminder that it hasn't killed us yet, to my knowledge, I'm alive. No, hasn't killed me. It has broken my heart a time or two, but I'm still here, still resilient, still showing up, still doing my thing. And the other thing that you said I thought was really cool. So you put yourself out there, you ask for what you want and you get an unexpected offer. Right, I've been looking for someone to sell this to.

Angie Colee:

I talked about this with someone last year that I used to have a partnership with. We were talking about the merits of building a consultancy that was designed to sell, and, on the one hand, I like that. Right, please, I'll sell a company and I'll use that to go finance something else I want to build. And then, on the other hand, I ran into the same issue that your predecessor did, where I was like but will they care? Will they go the extra mile like I would? That makes me a little bit leery and skeeved out. So I found that interesting that that was not like I'm not the only person clearly to think about something like that.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Well, you know, I think most of us, when we get into business, you know obviously we're doing it to to earn a living right and to take care of our families and such. But a lot of us get into the business that we're in because we are passionate about it, because we love it, because we love serving those clients. And so you know, the business that you build is ultimately a reflection of you. Even though you may sell it to someone else, you're still looking at it as your baby right, and so if they take it and do something that you wouldn't necessarily like to see done with it, you look at that as a reflection on yourself at the end of the day.

Angie Colee:

I can totally understand that. Was she able to and I say this with more curiosity, like not any? Was she able to disconnect and let Bernie take over, or she?

Bernie DeSantis III:

did. Yeah, she did a fantastic job. I would say that she is 98% retired. I'm still able to call her in when necessary.

Angie Colee:

Oh, that's the best. That is the best kind of working relationship. Well, tell me a little bit about the process. So it's one thing to be a consultant in this business and work really well with the owner. What was it like stepping into that? Okay, now this is my business and I have to run it. Role.

Bernie DeSantis III:

You know, honestly, it was a kick in the teeth. You know, I am a really good or at least so I'm told a really good facilitator, trainer, virtual producer and OK instructional designer. You know, but being able to do all of those things, you know, being a role player and being really good at it doesn't necessarily equate to successfully running a business. Right, you know, it's not all that difficult to stand at the front of a room or on camera and be an engaging speaker, but that is not sales and business development. As an example, right, Like when I started my career at Quicken Loans 20 years ago, I started off as a mortgage banker making 100 phone calls a day. Right, the smile and dial routine, and I hated it. It was not what I wanted to be doing with my career. So now here I am, 20 years later, doing that exact thing. Right, I'm reaching out to people on LinkedIn cold, you know, DMing or sending emails or, in some cases, making those cold calls and it. You know it doesn't fulfill my soul to have to do those things, but I definitely like to have a full plate. You know, I like to be able to eat every day. So I had to get over those things pretty quickly and when we're talking about my business in particular, learning and development dips in the economy, as an example are really significant to this business. When you talk about, as an example, the layoffs that are happening right now in the corporate business world, a lot of those people getting laid off are the service providers, your training folks, your marketing folks right, All of the people who don't necessarily add revenue to the bottom line. They're the ones who go first, and then the second thing to go is any of those large scale initiatives or training projects. So that very directly impacts you know my business, so you know coming to terms and understanding all of the different nuances of running a business, as opposed to just working within. It was very eye-opening and, frankly, learned some very painful lessons along the way, you know, one of which is an example.

Bernie DeSantis III:

My predecessor was very proud of the fact that she never spent any money on marketing or advertising. Everything that she did was through word of mouth and networking. When I took over the company, I made it a point that I was going to redo the website and I was going to have a social media presence and I was going to start advertising and I was going to create email campaigns and all of these grand ideas. But then I realized how much money and time it takes to do all of those things. And you know, quite frankly, I spent a lot of time just running myself ragged.

Bernie DeSantis III:

I would easily work 12, 13, 14 hours a day doing all of those things because in my head I've got to do them in order to be successful and you do need to do all of those things to be successful. And I won't say that I was doing those things because I felt like I had to. I did, but I felt like, as a business owner, I should be focused on those things and I'm passionate about what I'm doing. So missing lunch not a big deal for me, because I loved what I was doing. I was really happy about doing those things. But they do take time and they do take money. And if you don't recognize your budget as an example, right, and your versus your revenue, your return on investment, If you're not thinking about those things, they catch up with you really quickly.

Angie Colee:

Yes, they do, and I feel like word of mouth and referrals have been a consistent theme in conversations I've had with other entrepreneurs lately, because a lot of folks had a word of mouth or referral based business until the recent economic challenges when, like you mentioned, there's layoffs, there's a tightening of belts in a lot of places and it's harder, those people aren't buying things as much. So now what do you do? I think a lot of people are having to develop sales systems of some sort. The funny thing is, for me in developing sales systems, it's been a combination. My business coach and I were talking about this recently, because this is a learning journey for me as well.

Angie Colee:

I have been referral-based my entire career and that was super easy for me when I was a copywriter. When I left my last role and started my consulting, started the podcast was focused on writing the book the initial inquiries I got were like oh, you left that guy's copy team, Could you come write copy for me now? And so I had to learn how to say no to those projects, knowing that I wanted to move out of it. And then I've also had to figure out how to own my own sales process beyond just you know, oh, somebody thinks of Angie. I put myself out there, I put some content out there and eventually people are going to come to me Like no, I feel like there needs to be a better discussion about outbound versus inbounds. And there are so many marketers out there teaching inbound as the end all be all and I just want to like shake people. That's not it?

Bernie DeSantis III:

Unfortunately, it's not as much as you'd like it to be right. People just bringing you up saying, hey, I want your services. That's not typically how it works.

Angie Colee:

It's part of the long range business plans, absolutely, and every business should have a plan to build a platform, bring people to you, reverse that lead flow so that you're not going out there and chasing things and chasing is probably the wrong word, but like, in a sense, you have to go out there and chase business when you're in growth mode. It's funny, isn't that? Your chapter of Success Champions is growth mode engaged.

Angie Colee:

Unintentional plug there for the win. Bernie and I met, actually through a conference last year and we sat at the same table at the Badass Business Summit, shout out to Donnie and the crew and talked marketing and things like that. But where I really gained enthusiasm and became a Bernie fan was when we were at karaoke nights hanging at a business conference. It was so much fun. So, yeah, hey, if you're listening to this, come to the Badass Business Summit with us. Another plug there. So tell me a little bit more about this journey, like figuring out how to put yourself out there, how to get more clients, when you've got all these systems to build, you've got these things that are competing for your time and you've got a new baby.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, I do. I have a six month old daughter, so adding that into the mix has, uh, added some some fun challenges, right? I mean I, I absolutely love being a dad. She's amazing. She is now getting into that bear crawl not quite crawling yet, but like she can get herself up there still trying to figure out how to, you know, move all four of her limbs in concert. But you know, adding that in was certainly another layer of complexity to it all you know.

Bernie DeSantis III:

As far as my sales process and what I'm doing for business development, you know, really a lot of it goes back to networking and success champions very specifically goes back to networking and success champions very specifically. When I first became owner of the business, I again rebuilt my website and started doing some posting on LinkedIn and such, started doing some active networking, but I didn't realize that I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I was going into almost every one of those conversations and pitch slapping the hell out of people, which unfortunately does not really work. If you don't know that, you know I definitely encourage you to come visit a Success Champions Networking and get some training on that. But you know the other piece of it not only was I pitch slapping people, I was also going to the wrong groups, which I didn't realize was a thing. You know, when you're talking about networking, there's different types of groups that are out there B2C versus B2B and I was going to so many B2C networking groups not realizing that that really wasn't my tribe, wasn't really where I needed to be, spent countless hours in those meetings and then doing virtual coffees and one-on-ones with people that you know I'm glad to have them in my network, I'm glad that we got to build a bit of a relationship and have that conversation, but at the end of the day it wasn't leading to more closed business.

Bernie DeSantis III:

So, you know, once I met Donnie and kind of got a little bit of education around how to effectively network and focus very specifically on B2B style business development, you know started to see things turn the corner a little bit. Very specifically, I learned more about how to talk about my business in a non-pitchy way. That was really really important being able to explain what I'm doing and how it works to people who are not familiar with learning and development and what needs to happen. You know really kind of planted our flag again in that virtual space over the course of COVID.

Bernie DeSantis III:

But I came to recognize through some of this networking just how many small business owners, coaches, consultants, authors, independent trainers there are out there that get completely overlooked by most service providers.

Bernie DeSantis III:

They just don't pay attention to that market. You know, one of my clients through a partner company is Johnson Johnson and, as an example, they do about 200 webinars a month, global town halls, literally thousands of people, and if one of them doesn't go well, it's probably not going to break their business. That's just the reality of it. But a small business owner, an independent coach or consultant that's doing workshops in Zoom, they might do two or three of them a month and if one of them doesn't go well, that could really significantly impact their business. And I came to recognize just how important it is to support these folks and so I've started to, as opposed to just going after big enterprise level clients, which I like those, obviously, because they're the ones that keep the lights on for the most part but I feel like I'm really having a significant impact in that marketplace, which I didn't even know, frankly, existed, even though I am a small business myself.

Angie Colee:

It's funny how that level of awareness like changes the further that you go down the path, and sometimes that's something that you can only learn by going down the path. I feel like that has happened to me a lot too Just this sudden awareness of, oh, that was me five years ago or that's where I'm going 10 years into the future, like I understand this a little bit more than it feels like. And first of all, pitch slapping I love that. That is going somewhere in the show notes. Second, going to the wrong groups. This is something I've ranted about before, but I spent a lot of time thinking that all networking was good networking and in a sense you can't really tell until you get there whether it's a place for you or not. But we've also got to be willing to look at it, kind of like dating I'm trying to find the one willing to look at it. Kind of like dating Like I'm I'm trying to find the one. And that may mean that I try out a couple of groups in advance that don't quite feel like it.

Angie Colee:

Early in my career I had this morning networking group that would meet in person for breakfast every Tuesday and we would talk about business. But after a while it just felt like we were going through the motions, because we would introduce ourselves, we would bring guests, we would have a presenter, we would do networking and then we would get to the goals part and like these are my goals for the week. And I noticed after a while that it was the same goals every week, myself included, and that there was always an excuse for why these goals weren't happening, why we weren't making progress. And I realized that that had an impact on me. Right, I mean, I have agency over how I decided to do things and I could have been somebody that went okay, well, you guys aren't hitting your goals, but I'm going to hit mine. But instead, like a human right, I fell in line with the group and wasn't hitting my goals and eventually decided well, this really isn't helping me the way that I want it to and I can stay with these guys. It's a great group of guys, fantastic people building really awesome things but it's not helping me get toward my goals and my time would be better suited somewhere else. So I did wind up leaving and finding other groups to be in, and I visited growth mode a couple of times. Need to come join that and be a more permanent fixture in the community.

Angie Colee:

Like you've got to remember in networking that it's about trying different things, much the same about getting new business right. I've done everything from dropping flyers on people to cold emailing, cold calling, sending old school letters. I even sent Valentine's day cards once to past clients. Um, and everything I do teaches me something invaluable and it does put my name out there and allow people to be like right, I like Angie, let me work with her. Um, one thing I learned from the Valentine's day campaign don't send a Valentine's day card to somebody you didn't particularly enjoy working with, especially if you parted ways. Like you really didn't like working with each other. That person may interpret that as a sign that you're trying to pick them up and date them which was definitely not my intent in sending those out.

Angie Colee:

So yeah, try things, put yourself out there, meet new people.

Bernie DeSantis III:

detach from the results, that's what I got out of all that? Absolutely, I really feel like I've started to turn a corner, particularly in the networking side of it. Right, Because not only talking about my business was an important right. Make sure I communicate what it is that I do and how I do it and why it's important, but also being able to communicate who it is that I wanted to be introduced to, Right Like.

Bernie DeSantis III:

I went into a lot of those, those meetings, especially early again, I'd go in and I'd pitch slapping with all my services, everything that I could do, but I would never talk about who I wanted to be introduced to. Right. Who are my, my referral partners? Who is going to potentially send me business? Because you can go into some of these networking one-on-ones and that person might not be your ideal client Right, and that's okay. But they might be able to introduce you to your ideal client and if you're not able to articulate who you want to talk to, to that person, you've wasted the hour or half hour, however long you spent with them the hour or half hour, however long you spent with them.

Angie Colee:

Oh, that's so important Like that. You know, I talked earlier about getting into the the discomfort and building my skills with reaching out. So that means that I've had to reach out to my network over the last several months and tell them hey, I've got this new offer, I'm looking to meet people. Um, and then it was funny I left like who I was looking to meet, just kind of off. I just explained the offer and why it was really great, which is already hard enough for me to do because I'm not somebody that is accustomed to being like glory to Angie.

Angie Colee:

Here are all the reasons I'm awesome. Racking is already something that I struggle to do. So telling people all the reasons why I'm awesome and like, let's be clear, I recognize that I'm awesome. I have literally got numbers showing that I know what I'm talking about. I just struggle to tell people I know what I'm talking about and here are the numbers that show you that. So I'm reaching out to people and telling them about this super awesome offer. I'm telling them about the awesome results that it's generating, and I completely leave off the who. And then, thankfully, I'm reaching out to people that I know past podcast guests, people that I have developed a relationship with and saying this is what I'm looking to do and people go awesome. Can you tell me a little bit more about who might be a good fit for this so that I can get some people together? And I went, oh, thank you.

Angie Colee:

Thank you for reminding me I forgot that little piece.

Angie Colee:

It's people in my mind that look like this, that meet these qualifications, and the more I started having those conversations, the more they asked questions that gave me clarity, that allowed me to tailor that email even more. And now I've got a pretty tight performing email that I send out to someone and they go oh, that sounds like a really awesome offer. I'll keep my eyes out and I think I've got somebody to introduce you to stay tuned, and it's been a lot easier. Let's put it out there.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Put it out there, absolutely yeah. If you can't articulate who it is that you want to talk to and what it is that you do in a clear and concise way, you're not going to meet the people that you want. That's just, you know, just fact.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, and I think that's the funny part about all of this and like why I get up on a soapbox. So much about marketing. Marketing is not hard and I will beat that drum until the day I die. What is hard is figuring out what you do and who you're for, and that's where most people struggle, because they're in the. You know well my product or service could help everybody. So really it's for everybody. No, it's not. And until you start with who you help solve a particular problem, it's going to be really hard to attract people to you, to turn on that attraction engine Right. You're going to have to constantly go out and hunt people down because nobody really knows what you do.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, exactly, true, exactly.

Angie Colee:

True and, like I can be clear, you can build a business doing that. There are plenty of people out there doing businesses like that. Can build a business doing that. There are plenty of people out there doing businesses like that. They're struggling to scale, they're struggling to claw back any amount of time. They're struggling to be profitable because they're spending so much time going out there and chasing.

Angie Colee:

That's the other piece of this, too, and I think it's so perfect that, like I'm on this rant with the guy that I would associate to be one of the kings of networking that I know, since you run this group, I had this head trash and tell me, if this ever happened for you, that I couldn't contact people I know about growing my business because I would be bothering them. My whole association with networking would be I need to go to this event with a room full of strangers who know nothing about me and convince them of my awesomeness and drop a business card. And that is what networking is. And things really changed for me when I realized, like no, my network already exists. I have friends and family and relationships going back decades. At this point, god, I'm old. All of those people are somebody that I would share good news with if something really awesome happened to me. So why can't my good news be I'm starting this particular offer, this particular business, this thing, and I'm looking for people. Could you help me out?

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I ran into a similar thing. You know, when I first started networking, that was my headspace as well. I have to go out and meet new people because the people that I already know should know what I do and should be out there looking out for me. No, they're not. They are certainly willing to help if you ask them for that help, if you explain to them what you're doing, but that they are not, as much as we'd love to believe it, out there thinking about us every single day, as they're going throughout their life. I mean, they very well could be coming across all types of opportunities for you, but if you never have that conversation with them, if you never let them know what you're doing, what you're looking for, they won't know. And it's not to your point. It's not activating your network. You know. Obviously you want to talk to new people so that you can continue to grow that network, but the whole point of growing the network is to build those relationships.

Bernie DeSantis III:

So if you already have relationships, you got to go and talk to those people that you have relationships with already.

Angie Colee:

Yes, absolutely, and it's funny like I struggled with networking so much because of that head trash around. But I can't ask people for something. I need to be able to give stuff too, and one of my colleagues who is in a mastermind with me also struggles with this. I call it Southern woman syndrome, because a lot of us that grew up being socialized as women have a lot of trouble asking for things. It makes us feel guilty, it makes us feel like we are imposing on people, and the reverse is actually true In most instances.

Angie Colee:

I have found out, and taking from my own experience too, if somebody asked me for help and I can provide that help, I get a lot of joy out of seeing somebody succeed, see somebody create this beautiful relationship or partner on something out of like what a five minute introduction from me, a quick phone call from me. I am absolutely happy. That is not going out of my way at all, treating an ask as an imposition, as an imperative, as an order, because that is not the case at all. An ask is just a request. They can say yes or no and, as we've already established, no is not going to kill us, that's right.

Angie Colee:

We can still love our friends even when they tell us no. And I've told people no that have asked me for favors before. I've said, hey, you know this is a little bit beyond what I currently have time for. If you want to book a call, I've got some availability. In a couple of weeks we could do a quick consult and I could make that happen. Or, hey, I don't really have time or space for that. If you could circle back in a few weeks I might be able to help. Then I tell people no all the time, but I do it with the understanding that this is what makes the network strong being able to help. And this is why you need to get good at asking people for stuff, because you want to encourage them to ask you for stuff too. And this is how we build those relationships and we rely on each other and we all grow together.

Bernie DeSantis III:

That's right. Yeah, I mean because good networking is reciprocal, right, it is a relationship, a give and take, a back and forth. If it's one way, then you know it's. It's not really good networking, unfortunately. And you, if you're doing all of the giving, it gets really tedious really fast. You know you need to be able to ask for things and you know I'm a big fan of of Donnie's approach that he teaches, which is, you know, three gives, then you get and then you give again. Right, and it does seem a little bit lopsided, but you're building that relationship equity right, because once you've done something, once you've helped, that law of reciprocity comes back. They're going to be thinking of you and looking for ways to help you. All you have to do at that point is ask to help you.

Angie Colee:

All you have to do at that point is ask, and it's so funny how easy it is to conflate, you know, giving and doing with going above and beyond, which is why I've gotten really good at asking people, clarifying questions. Okay, so what would best help you in this scenario? Okay, you need help growing business. You need help with connections. What are you looking for specifically? Are there people I could introduce you to? Is there a podcast that I could help you get on? Something to that like give me something specific to roll with, and I'm happy to help you with. It's amazing how often we think we're being clear with our ask. You know I need some leads, okay, what does that look like to you, though? Does that mean specific introductions? Does that mean that you want to speak on a stage? Don't be afraid to articulate what you want, and you can have multiple goals. Just don't land them, you know, in a thud in somebody's lap. I want, I want to be interviewed on podcasts, and I want to speak on stage, and I want to do this and I want to do that and I want to do that. I want to do that and I want to do that. I want to do that. Do you have any opportunities for me, like whoa, whoa, whoa? Could we narrow it down to maybe the top two and then then another two later on after we have gotten those two out of the way?

Angie Colee:

Right, I think that's the other part of the ask, too is being aware of and trying not to overthink it. Right, this is tricky and there's balance, but balance is movement. It is not static, which is where I think we associate balance with being stuck in one particular point in time and never changing. Balance is movement, which means sometimes you're giving more and sometimes you're taking more, you're receiving more. I like receiving more than taking. Well, of course, but you've got to be aware of the fact that if I'm asking somebody for an introduction, that's a slightly different ask than if I'm asking for somebody to get on a call with me and brainstorm new offer, potential angles, advertising, things like that, something that's in their wheelhouse. I don't even know if any of that was just clear, but it's clear to me.

Bernie DeSantis III:

I'm picking up what you're laying down.

Angie Colee:

Fantastic, I love it.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Hopefully our listeners are today too.

Angie Colee:

Well, and I think this will help folks that are new to networking or they've struggled with networking in the past Match the ask to the level of the relationship that you've got right.

Angie Colee:

I wouldn't ask somebody that I have just gotten to know, who isn't aware of me and what I can do, for an intro to say, like somebody high powered, right, I'm not going to waste that early relationship capital on a big ask like that, because I understand what I'm asking them to do there.

Angie Colee:

I'm asking them to lend some of their reputation to me in making this introduction, this connection, and so I'm going to stay. This sounds really bad as I'm explaining it, but I hope that people can hear my heart behind this. Like I'm going to stay kind of on my level people that are in my peer group, right, and I'm going to build that connection. I'm going to help these folks and then, as I reach up and meet more people, I'm going to build that connection. I'm going to help these folks and then, as I reach up and meet more people, I'm going to bring them with me, versus trying to like skip over people and skip steps and make big asks. Maybe there are people out there that disagree with me and they say, hey, go straight for the top, go for the jugular, whatever, but this is what works for me.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Well, I think that there's two sides to that coin, right, cause, again, the answer could be no, and that's, that's okay, and you'll never get that no if you don't ask. But I think that that you're, you're, you're spot on. You know you don't want to have an ask that is too big for the individual that you're talking to, because it may take a lot for them to complete that ask for you, right? You know they may know the CEO of XYZ organization, but doing so, you know, getting a conversation or an introduction, would be way out of their lane, right. So you do have to be careful about that. And I think that those type of asks, you know, are better for a second or third or fourth meeting, right, somewhere down the line.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Like I said, once you've built a little bit of equity in the relationship they know who you are, you know who they are. You built that. You know, know, like and trust it would. I would probably appreciate somebody who asked for someone high level from me on a first, first meeting. I'd be like you know, you've got, you've got some balls, and so I would appreciate that. But on the same token, would I necessarily go deep into my Rolodex and pull out. You know those really trusted people for them. I don't know that I would on a first call.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, and that's a good point. I think that's at the heart of what I was trying to get at. Which is it's relationship capital on me to make that relation, that introduction too. At which is it's relationship capital on me to make that introduction too? So if I don't know you really well and I'm introducing you to this person and maybe you have an off day, right, Everything goes wrong and you don't show up your best. But now my connection is going hey, what was up with that? I don't know why that person wanted to get on the phone with me. Now my connection is looking at me a little bit weird too. So I have to be careful about who I introduced to whom.

Angie Colee:

Now let me be clear. I'm not trying to introduce reasons for you to overthink this or to not reach out. I would rather you make the ask and let the person say no to you. Maybe they'll be generous and give you a reason why they're saying no. But make the ask because you never know what will happen.

Angie Colee:

But also be aware that if you can do these things, like make deposits into this relationship bank before, especially before asking a big ask, be willing to help people with their asks, not just looking to get your asks serviced and match the request. Like, understand what you're asking people to do when you ask them. If you're asking people to do when you ask them, If you're asking them to, like, read a book and write a foreword, that's a completely different ask from making a two minute intro to somebody. You know what I mean. So, like, just be aware of what you're asking people, but make the ask. Yep, Agreed. Well, I didn't expect to rant about all kinds of network things today, but what can I say? You bring it out. This is fantastic. Tell us a little bit more about what you do, where we can learn more about you, and tell us about Growth Mode too.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, really, the types of projects that we work on again are really anything in learning and development. So that could be instructor-led training, that could be virtual trainings, that could be e-learning as well. You know, you get to a point doing this as long as I have with as many you know professionals that I've worked with in the L&D space where you start to recognize there's only so many ways that people learn things right, there's only so many ways that we can deliver content and eventually you get to a point where you're kind of able to plug and play that different subject matter in. And so that's why I say you know, as an organization we're industry product service agnostic. It really doesn't matter, because as an organization we are learning and development professionals. So we will come in, we will work with you, with your subject matter experts. We'll extract all the information that we need. Come in, we will work with you, with your subject matter experts, we'll extract all the information that we need. I don't need to be an expert on finance and tax accounting, but you are and I can pull that information from you and we can build you a dynamite training program. I would also venture to say that, especially now. People really need to be leveraging Zoom as an example, these virtual platforms that we have out there for these types of meetings and trainings, because if you're not, you are missing the boat. There is so much opportunity to connect with people all over the globe, not just in your local community or in your city or your state. I can do an event today for somebody here in Michigan and then an hour later I can be doing an event for someone in Australia. It just allows you to have that much more reach. So highly recommend that as well.

Bernie DeSantis III:

You know, and I would say as far as the networking goes, growth Mode Engaged is a B2B national networking group. Right now we're at 16 Uh. We started with five back in October, so we've we've more than tripled at this point. Um heading uh for 30, I think is is really kind of the goal. We want to max out at about 30. And then, once we do, we will likely split and then have two groups and grow those up Um. So I'm really excited about that, that growth. We're bringing in some really great people as well, and I think that's even the more important piece than the quantity or the number is. Everyone is aligned in how we're networking, who we're networking with. We're all very clear on our asks what it is that we do in these conversations that we have with people for these virtual coffees and one-on-ones. So if you're not already networking, if you haven't found your tribe, absolutely recommend that you come and visit a success champions networking group, be it mine or any of the ones within the network Fantastic group to be associated with Awesome.

Angie Colee:

Totally agree. I happen to fall into, you know, badass Business Summit and Success Champions by total accident, but it was through a random intro from my network that I found all these awesome people and now here we are having this fantastic conversation. I'm going to make sure that there are clickable links in the show notes for anybody that wants to come check you out, and thank you so much for being on the show. It was a blast.

Bernie DeSantis III:

Oh, thank you, Angie, I appreciate it. Yeah, if they're not connected with me, reach out on LinkedIn. We are doing free workshops and webinars almost weekly at this point, so I would love to have you come and visit and check out some of our content.

Angie Colee:

That's all for now. If you want to keep that kick-ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high-octane dose of you can do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick-Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, spotify and wherever you stream your podcasts. I'm your host, angie Coley, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go kick some ass.